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I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

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Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#21

Post by virtualwhys »

corwinstephen wrote: post #12
notimetorelax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let them suffer I agree to that. If management doesn't feel pain of its mistakes it does not have an incentive to improve.

This is going to sound insulting and I don't mean it that way, but does anyone ever wonder about the fact that managers are frequently considerably less intelligent than the people they manage? I think that's what drives the frustration a lot of the time. The thing is, just because they're less intelligent doesn't mean they're not good managers, but it think it certainly makes it a lot harder for programmers, who are…

Completely agree, a manger without a technical (coding, sysadmin, etc.) background has a weak foundation: how can they make decisions without knowing the domain itself?

Not so sure coders trump managers in the intelligence dept. After all, managers tend to earn more, and do less; I'd say they're brilliant in this respect ;-)

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#22

Post by derefr »

codewright wrote: post #7

Your job is to produce surplus value for your employer in exchange for reduced risk and possibly to specialize into work you find interesting. (Machine Learning doesn't happen without division of labor.) You do not owe your employer your sanity or anything above and beyond what's reasonable. (As decided by your personal satisfaction and the standards/mores of your culture.) If you're seeking to put more into the pot…

I don't think the guy in the story felt guilted into doing more work. He was trying to "climb the corporate ladder" by doing the only thing he knew how to do--working harder. He didn't understand the effort thermocline[1].

[1] http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/gervais-macle...

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#23

Post by JanezStupar »

corwinstephen wrote: post #12
notimetorelax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let them suffer I agree to that. If management doesn't feel pain of its mistakes it does not have an incentive to improve.

This is going to sound insulting and I don't mean it that way, but does anyone ever wonder about the fact that managers are frequently considerably less intelligent than the people they manage? I think that's what drives the frustration a lot of the time. The thing is, just because they're less intelligent doesn't mean they're not good managers, but it think it certainly makes it a lot harder for programmers, who are…

I guess that you are still a novice. Usually managers did the work of their underlings. However seldomly a competent person gets promoted - as you need someone to do the work. And since the less competent person will be relatively better manager than producer in comparison to the competent person, the less competent guy gets the promotion.

I strongly advise everyone to read the Putt's Law, where this phenomena is broken down in great depth.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#24

Post by codewright »

derefr wrote: post #22
codewright wrote: post #7

Your job is to produce surplus value for your employer in exchange for reduced risk and possibly to specialize into work you find interesting. (Machine Learning doesn't happen without division of labor.) You do not owe your employer your sanity or anything above and beyond what's reasonable. (As decided by your personal satisfaction and the standards/mores of your culture.) If you're seeking to put more into the pot…

I don't think the guy in the story felt guilted into doing more work. He was trying to "climb the corporate ladder" by doing the only thing he knew how to do--working harder. He didn't understand the effort thermocline[1]. [1] http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/gervais-macle...

I was giving advice to the general audience.

I have to admit, I find the jargon of this particular sub-culture of analyzing corporate politics somewhat annoying despite being a fan of Church.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#25

Post by annymsMthd »

DigitalSea wrote: post #2

This is sadly a lot more common than people think. I have a similar story from a prior employer, a system administrator who was often asked to fix problems usually caused by bad managerial decisions of which he always flagged initially as being problematic but nobody listened to him, even after it turned out he was right from the start, he was one of those guys who knew their shit. He was a really nice, quiet and res…

I had a similar situation happen to me, minus the going crazy part. If you constantly have to clean up because of the bad decisions of a manager then you should just leave that company. Don't bust your ass trying to make a difference and change minds that don't want to change. If you are an employee you are expendable.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#26

Post by arthurrr »

pritianka wrote: post #3

Its so unfortunate to hear things like this. I knew of a person who was so stressed out by programming in similar situations that he went through a complete career revamp. He changed to law school and went on to work in government. He seems happier.

I started out as a computer programmer. After a few years of dealing with the braindead corporate system in America, I decided to make a change. I ended up moving to Australia (just applied for citizenship), and I work as a kitchen hand at an all girls boarding school. I get $20 an hour, penalties on weekends and public holidays, 4 weeks paid holidays a year, and superannuation (a retirement fund). Best decision I ever made.

If I didn't end up leaving, I might have ended up just like him.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#27

Post by Swizec »

derefr wrote: post #20
Zenst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly it is more common than people even think. Oddly enough it is always the ones that are most productive and I know from personal experience you can clear 200 tickets in a week and somebody doing the same job and paid more gets thru that in a year and you are the one being shafted as you spend your time doing the work instead of office politics.

Perhaps, instead of seeing your job as "what the job description says", you should see it as "whatever actually gets me rewarded." Which is to say, at some companies, playing office politics is your real job. "Work" is just a signal you can emit to show that you are willing to submit enough to not get fired.

Perhaps doing more office politics than productive work is your job's signal it's time to leave. Do you want to work at a company where more resources are wasted on keeping the lights on so to speak than providing value to users? I sure don't.

If you can't talk to the CEO or CTO, if you're technical, on your first day physically at the company, that's a Bad Signal (tm).

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#28

Post by oyvindeh »

ptaipale wrote: post #18
oyvindeh wrote: post #13

This is sad, but it's also plain old human psychology. If you help someone out, you put yourself in an inferior position. If you're always the one sacrificing yourself, people around you will feel more and more superior to you. At some point, they will start expecting that you sacrifice yourself whenever shit hits the fan. This doesn't mean it's bad to help out, or to sacrifice yourself once in a while. But in order…

If you help someone out, you put yourself in an inferior position. I don't think so. I don't feel so. At least when things are reasonable. Rather to the contrary: I feel stronger for being able to help. Of course, in an unhealthy situation where help is required but not appreciated, and the person who help is not respected, then it's different. Fortunately, not my case most of the time.

I don't think so. I don't feel so.

It's important to keep in mind that the other party may feel superior, even though you don't feel inferior.

However, for many people this whole thing will never become a problem, because they are good at protecting their integrity.

At least when things are reasonable. Rather to the contrary: I feel stronger for being able to help.

That may very well be the case. But people (and situations) are different, and if you have a problem saying no, things may get very unhealthy.

Of course, in an unhealthy situation where help is required but not appreciated, and the person who help is not respected, then it's different. Fortunately, not my case most of the time

I guess that is often the case in stories like this. If you never say no, at some point your help gets more expected than appreciated.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#29

Post by vy8vWJlco »

derefr wrote: post #20
Zenst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly it is more common than people even think. Oddly enough it is always the ones that are most productive and I know from personal experience you can clear 200 tickets in a week and somebody doing the same job and paid more gets thru that in a year and you are the one being shafted as you spend your time doing the work instead of office politics.

Perhaps, instead of seeing your job as "what the job description says", you should see it as "whatever actually gets me rewarded." Which is to say, at some companies, playing office politics is your real job. "Work" is just a signal you can emit to show that you are willing to submit enough to not get fired.

Most individuals wouldn't have chosen that deal at face value, so it's understandable if they eventually come to resent their "real job."

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#30

Post by mcclung »

I know a guy that started cutting himself once with a small pocket knife. He just went back to his office and lost it. He was obviously asked to leave, as he was upsetting the rest of the employees. I saw him a couple of years later and he didn't mention it so I didn't either. How do you ask someone if they are still crazy?

Stress is a killer. I try not to let it get to me; I have responsibilities.

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