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The secrets of body language

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Re: The secrets of body language

#101

Post by derefr »

JDGM wrote: post #99
derefr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I adopting higher-status body language than them and they are keeping up? You're playing a secondary game, countersignalling by conspicuously assuming a lower-status pose. You're both aware that you could instead assume their pose and play chicken with them about who will submit first. By "choosing the high road," you're saying that you've noticed the status game in play, and that now their implicit status move…

Good reply. The feet on the table did occur to me as one which I could have the wrong way around and while only "slightly wired to predict that feet are smelly or covered in dirt" may be true (seems unintuitive to me though), I think the perceived discrepancy is cultural as much as anything. I've noticed the ickyness of putting feet on tables is almost universally invisible to Americans, while in Japan it would seem…

One other thing might be that outhouses were an American innovation[1], imported to other parts of the world later; and thus, of all rural-living subcultures (which are the usual source for a culture's hygenic mores/superstitions, being the most affected by them), rural Americans have had the longest to adapt to not worrying about getting shite on their feet. :)

[1] http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/sculptors-of-monumental-...

Re: The secrets of body language

#102

Post by nandemo »

blindhippo wrote: post #16

The fun part is watching people actually try to control their body language in reality. You can try, but if you aren't feeling what that "power pose" is broadcasting, you'll just look like an idiot to anyone even remotely paying attention. You aren't going to gain leadership by leaning back and spread eagling in a business meeting. You're going to gain it by being an actual leader and doing stuff that adds value to a…

> The fun part is watching people actually try to control their body language in reality. You can try, but if you aren't feeling what that "power pose" is broadcasting, you'll just look like an idiot to anyone even remotely paying attention.

The article describes a scientific (?) experiment that goes counter that intuition.

Re: The secrets of body language

#103

Post by saraid216 »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #64
saraid216 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power is not the same thing as domination.

Power is the ability to coerce through action or threat of action on those issues that you care about or in certain spheres of influence. So, no, this doesn't mean constant domination. But that's largely due to the fact that the powerful won't generally expend their resources on issues they don't care about. As soon as you disagree or oppose them on an issue that they do care about, though, they will try to dominate…

> But that's largely due to the fact that the powerful won't generally expend their resources on issues they don't care about.

Explaining why something isn't true doesn't suddenly make it true. Yes. Powerful people know better than to constantly dominate. That's why the popular psychological pseudoscience of "alpha behavior" is smoke and bullshit.

High-power behavior? Having the self-assurance to exhibit low-power behavior when they feel like it. Low-power behavior? Attempting to exhibit high-power behavior when they don't have what it takes to back it up.

See how this gets circular and pointless very, very fast?

Re: The secrets of body language

#104

Post by SilasX »

zeteo wrote: post #66

This kind of article doesn't address the issue known as Chesterton's fence [1]. If so-called "low power" poses are so bad for you, why have they survived evolution? Why do we have such strong ingrained impulses to assume them in the first place? "Experts" need to give a very, very convincing answer to this question before urging us to abandon such poses. Anecdotally, I've often been with groups of engineers where eve…

>This kind of article doesn't address the issue known as Chesterton's fence [1]. If so-called "low power" poses are so bad for you, why have they survived evolution?

That's not hard to explain: most of the selection power of evolution worked in the ancestral, hunters-n-gatherers environment, which covers most of the timespan when anatomically-modern humans lived. Selection modes changed significantly in the agricultural and industrial revolutions, but evolution works too slowly to align our biology ideally with the new environment (plus the local optimum problem).

Therefore, it's not uncommon for people to interpret their surroundings by the ancestral mind, even the basis for those "mental adaptations" no longer exist. Indeed, exploiting the difference is the basis for advertising and all other manners of social manipulation. And it's why Snickers bars taste so damn good but are so bad for you.

An especially relevant divergence on this topic is in meetings: the kind of things that were genetically optimal among a caveman tribe are very far from the processes that generate productive meeting outcomes. For example, your mind is constantly feeding you rationalizations for why something that happens to benefit you personally, will also benefit the group, even and especially when that is utterly false.

So ... I think the appropriate response to claims like the article's, on "Chestertonian" grounds, would be more along the lines of, "If this is so smart, why ain't you(r acolytes) rich?" That is, if people can easily switch to something so much more advantageous, why can't you just as easily prove it with working examples of people you've converted, rather than idly theorizing?

Re: The secrets of body language

#105

Post by daemon13 »

Mz wrote: post #74
zeteo wrote: post #66

This kind of article doesn't address the issue known as Chesterton's fence [1]. If so-called "low power" poses are so bad for you, why have they survived evolution? Why do we have such strong ingrained impulses to assume them in the first place? "Experts" need to give a very, very convincing answer to this question before urging us to abandon such poses. Anecdotally, I've often been with groups of engineers where eve…

I am female. My behavior is frequently interpreted by other people as extremely aggressive, attention mongering and so on. (Edit: I suspect a lot of it would be interpreted differently if I were male and it would be less of an issue.) It has gotten me loads of extremely negative attention. I have spent many years trying to learn to fly under the radar and deflect attention. This problem began very early in life with…

Sorry to hear about your past troubles.

Usually it helps when you learn to consiously (on demand) get yourself into a more relaxed state/mood internally. I found that when I am in the relaxed state, this really smoothes some rough edges in how people perceive myself.

Re: The secrets of body language

#106

Post by sergiosgc »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #63
bjcy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If you're the alpha, others give you respect, but this doesn't imply that you can't show respect to others. Respect is not only a form of deference. It is also a form of understanding.

My statement was too broad -- you're right. However, even giving shows of respect can cement the giver's higher status. I.e. I can confer honour upon you because I am the source of honour. Maybe I'm watching too much Game of Thrones.

Stop watching! It's no use, every character you love will die!

Re: The secrets of body language

#107

Post by omegant »

Mz wrote: post #74
zeteo wrote: post #66

This kind of article doesn't address the issue known as Chesterton's fence [1]. If so-called "low power" poses are so bad for you, why have they survived evolution? Why do we have such strong ingrained impulses to assume them in the first place? "Experts" need to give a very, very convincing answer to this question before urging us to abandon such poses. Anecdotally, I've often been with groups of engineers where eve…

I am female. My behavior is frequently interpreted by other people as extremely aggressive, attention mongering and so on. (Edit: I suspect a lot of it would be interpreted differently if I were male and it would be less of an issue.) It has gotten me loads of extremely negative attention. I have spent many years trying to learn to fly under the radar and deflect attention. This problem began very early in life with…

" Lots of celebrities have been seriously burned at some point and had trouble understanding why they were no longer darlings of the public eye. I got to go through that on a much smaller scale" After all it seems that you are afraid of loosing attention. Attention flood may be as undesirable as a drought. But if you have an unusual capability it would be unwise to not use it to your advantage, that is, unless you have money enough to pay for marketing and promotion while you stay away from the public eye.

Re: The secrets of body language

#109

Post by Mz »

omegant wrote: post #107
Mz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am female. My behavior is frequently interpreted by other people as extremely aggressive, attention mongering and so on. (Edit: I suspect a lot of it would be interpreted differently if I were male and it would be less of an issue.) It has gotten me loads of extremely negative attention. I have spent many years trying to learn to fly under the radar and deflect attention. This problem began very early in life with…

" Lots of celebrities have been seriously burned at some point and had trouble understanding why they were no longer darlings of the public eye. I got to go through that on a much smaller scale" After all it seems that you are afraid of loosing attention. Attention flood may be as undesirable as a drought. But if you have an unusual capability it would be unwise to not use it to your advantage, that is, unless you ha…

I am not afraid of losing attention. I have a healthy respect for the very real danger that comes from negative attention. There is nothing neurotic about that. I have a medical condition which makes a normal job a big problem for me. My best bet for success is via the internet. Traffic is necessary to make money. That is a simple objective reality having nothing to do with my feelings, personal baggage, yadda.

Re: The secrets of body language

#110

Post by Mz »

daemon13 wrote: post #105
Mz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am female. My behavior is frequently interpreted by other people as extremely aggressive, attention mongering and so on. (Edit: I suspect a lot of it would be interpreted differently if I were male and it would be less of an issue.) It has gotten me loads of extremely negative attention. I have spent many years trying to learn to fly under the radar and deflect attention. This problem began very early in life with…

Sorry to hear about your past troubles. Usually it helps when you learn to consiously (on demand) get yourself into a more relaxed state/mood internally. I found that when I am in the relaxed state, this really smoothes some rough edges in how people perceive myself.

Thanks. My past has a variety of influences, including abuse and medical impairment. I have addressed quite a lot of my personal issues. Getting this back to the topic of body language, for me, I think eye contact was a big factor. I wrote about that here:

http://www.novemberwest.com/blog/2011/07/17/an-invisible-shi...

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