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Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

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Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#31
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Google Glass you're signing a contract agreeing to specific terms. But when you buy a book, you haven't signed away any of your rights.

So why wouldn't publishers just make people sign a similar agreement if it's that simple?

Would you sign a contract to get a book?

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except it's not. and nonsensical invocations, like yours, just make skeptics of his find him even more delusional. this is a restriction on tester hardware (so-called Explorer Edition devices), which were already only available to people who paid for the privilege of being able to buy them. and please save any slippery-slope reply for another thread.

... paid for the privilege of being able to buy them. Did they buy them or not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine Edit: upon further reflection, first-sale doctrine is around intellectual properties like books and music. I presumed there was a legal right to sell goods you've bought... but maybe not?

First sale is only about intellectual properties because it is applied to copyright. That is, it is necessary to grant you the right to resell something that contains copyrighted property.

For example, without first sale you couldn't sell a book you legally bought, because the author still has distribution rights over the story it contains. (That make sense?)

For physical items, there is not a government granted monopoly to compare.

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#33
post #31
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why wouldn't publishers just make people sign a similar agreement if it's that simple?

Would you sign a contract to get a book?

I wouldn't pay $180 for a book either, but most people who buy textbooks don't have a choice.

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except it's not. and nonsensical invocations, like yours, just make skeptics of his find him even more delusional. this is a restriction on tester hardware (so-called Explorer Edition devices), which were already only available to people who paid for the privilege of being able to buy them. and please save any slippery-slope reply for another thread.

... paid for the privilege of being able to buy them. Did they buy them or not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine Edit: upon further reflection, first-sale doctrine is around intellectual properties like books and music. I presumed there was a legal right to sell goods you've bought... but maybe not?

sorry, when I said 'paid for the privilege of being able to buy them', I meant that literally.. almost like a purchase option.

people who attended Google I/O last year were given the opportunity to preorder an Explorer device.

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#35
I see a bunch of folks confusing first sale doctrines, contract law, etc here, so let me give a very short generalized primer:

1. The first sale doctrine is exhaustion of a single right of the exclusive copyright rights. In particular: It states that the right to restrict distribution[1] terminates upon first sale. It's codified at 17 USC 109, and states: "... the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord. "

As mention, this is exhaustion a very specific right of copyright, and applies to copyrighted works. In this case, that would be software. It has literally no bearing on a contract as part of the sale of goods, or whether you can sue for breach of that contract. It is a defense to copyright infringement.

To whit:

If I sell you a book, as part of a contract, and that contract says "no resale", and you sell it, the first sale doctrine would probably[2] prevent me from winning a lawsuit for copyright infringement but not prevent me from winning a lawsuit for for breach of contract.

2. Sales of tangible goods in the US are covered by the UCC (uniform commercial code). Every state has passed a version of the UCC (though not all are on the same revision, for this discussion, it doesn't really matter).

The UCC lets you freely contract for almost anything. It fills in and has default terms when not stated, requires some contracts be in writing, etc, but there is generally nothing that prevents you from doing something like preventing resale of an object. You can argue it's unconscionable to a court, or you can argue it violates some other law (antitrust, whatever), and thus the court should not enforce it but in most cases, it'll be a valid and enforceable contract on its face. In general, if you have a legal right to do something, you can validly contract to forgo that legal right. For example, you can promise to not marry anyone until age 30, promise to marry someone in exchange for money, etc (Neither of these would be UCC contracts)

3. As a final note, for sales of UCC goods, there is no additional consideration necessary for them to modify the agreement, only the general requirement of good faith.

I offer literally no opinion on the status of this particular agreement, or anything like it. The above is also not legal advice (among other things, i've left out exceptions, and merchant merchant rules, and ...), just an attempt to clear up some common misconceptions.

[1] "to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;" Note that "distribute copies" does not mean "make copies", it literally means "distribute" an already made copy. Reproduction is a separate right.

[2] There are some current cases (and past ones) making arguments that you can contract away your first sale rights. The problem with this idea is that as titled and written, 17 USC 109 is, IMHO, not an affirmative right (and thus something you could agree to forego, even though some cases hold it must be pleaded as an affirmative defense), but instead a limitation on the exclusive rights the owner has. It's even titled " Limitations on exclusive rights: Effect of transfer of particular copy or phonorecord".

This is why the standard mechanism software companies attempt to use is to classify their agreements as licenses that do not transfer ownership, rather than sales that do. If you are not an owner, the first sale doctrine does not help you. Success varies in ability to convince courts they aren't selling software, but instead, licensing it. In the end, it may not matter if they can succeed by suing for breach of contract rather than copyright infringement :)

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#36

This seems normal and precedented. When they handed out free Chromebooks 860 days ago[1] they had the same terms. Of course they also said: "Do not expose the device to water, moisture, or rap music." Not sure how we were supposed to take the rest of the message seriously... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987536

Isn't there a difference between limiting what you can do with a free Chromebook and limiting what you can do with something you pay $1500 to acquire?

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#37
post #36

This seems normal and precedented. When they handed out free Chromebooks 860 days ago[1] they had the same terms. Of course they also said: "Do not expose the device to water, moisture, or rap music." Not sure how we were supposed to take the rest of the message seriously... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987536

Isn't there a difference between limiting what you can do with a free Chromebook and limiting what you can do with something you pay $1500 to acquire?

I'd say the difference is a fairly underpowered laptop versus an entirely new form factor for a mass-produced computing device.

Edit: For underpowered, I meant the hardware for the CR-48, not ChromeOS. The hardware was unusably slow for me.

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#38
post #25

This is what RMS has been preaching all along. It finally makes sense now.

I'm pretty pro-GNU. I bristle when people mischaracterize the GPL. I try to avoid closed source software. I have to make quite a few exceptions, but I try to stick with open source even when it's less convenient/harder to use. I don't purchase copywritten stuff that uses DRM.

I am unphased by this. This is a complete and utter non-issue until Google lays this down on the consumer, retail version of Glass. It would be malicious (not to mention completely idiotic -- I can't see why Google would ever want to kill the secondary market on a new platform they're pushing) of Google to do this for the final version, but they aren't doing that.

And I think it strongly mischaracterizes RMS to say that this is what he has been preaching all along. Maybe a small subpart, but I think his message is broader and far more important.

Re: Google Is Forbidding Users From Reselling, Loaning Glass Eyewear

#40
That's not different from all the hardware that bears the inscription "ENGINEERING SAMPLE - NOT FOR RESALE," other than the fact that they're promoted to a larger public (read: not developers that have drawers full of obsolete engineering samples). Some of that hardware is not the same hardware than the retail version and is essentially obsolete as soon as the retail version comes out, due to a different BOM between the sample and retail version and the fact that the manufacturer does not want to support the prototype version with updates.

It doesn't make any sense for Google to restrict the resale of the retail version, but at this point in time, Google Glass is not a product that is generally available. If they keep that restriction for the retail version, now that is news.

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