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I Stand With Trolls

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Re: I Stand With Trolls

#81

Post by pc86 »

zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

I don't mean any of this to sound like a personal attack, so please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to show you the other side of your argument.

Let's pretend I agree with Prop 8 (I don't, with the exception of what ChuckMcM mentioned below). Clearly you feel strongly about it, enough to avoid a company on the sole basis there is a leader there who disagrees with you, someone you may or may not work directly for or with on a daily basis. If I were a hard-line conservative and I knew that about you, I would be terrified to work for you. I have no idea what you might if you come across a blog post, a random tweet, or something else after we've been working together. Surely if you're willing to write off an entire company due to a single $1,000 donation (the line of reasoning goes..), you might be willing to fire me over a mundane tweet about a controversial issue you feel strongly about. This is to say nothing of the huge nebulous area about if I apply for a job working directly for you and we both know we are at polar political extremes.

Ideally, there would be a clear demarcation between public/professional lives and personal lives. I don't care what my coworkers believe in, vote for, or donate to. I hope the same respect is afforded to me.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#82

Post by pilgrim689 »

simeonf wrote: post #70
onemorepassword wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's cultural context, but in my book homophobia has nothing to do with legitimate political beliefs. Being conservative has nothing at all to do with bigotry. Promoting hatred and discrimination towards any group that is part of your (potential) employees and their friends and families would be good reason to fire someone as far as I'm concerned.

I can't believe I'm saying this on HN (where I would like to see less political discussion, not more) but having a different cultural and political viewpoint does not make somebody a bigot. The constant assertion that it does is bullying - an attempt to impose your morals on everybody else. Please - if you literally consider the worlds Catholic and Muslim population (to cite two large religious populations nearly uni…

I'm pretty sure some beliefs actually ruin lives (sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.). Do you just accept all of them as being "weird and wacky"? Shouldn't we draw the line somewhere? Even the great thinkers in ethics like Kant or John Stuart Mills draw the line somewhere, each in their own way... but both utlitarian and kantian ethics would agree that preventing sexuality equality is unethical.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#84

Post by lawnchair_larry »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #61
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Just as a heads up, there were a non-zero number of people who "supported" Prop 8 for a very different reason. This group of people reasoned that the only way to get equal protection under the law for gay and straight people was to have this law pass , have it be contested, and have the Supreme Court toss it out. Here is the thing, you can't go to the Supreme Court with some random request to rule on a principle they…

I think you're stretching, and I think we do know why Eich supported it. It was not for any legitimate or strategic reason.

I agree that any group of people will have some that disagree, but he is the CTO. That changes things.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#85

Post by calebegg »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #61
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Just as a heads up, there were a non-zero number of people who "supported" Prop 8 for a very different reason. This group of people reasoned that the only way to get equal protection under the law for gay and straight people was to have this law pass , have it be contested, and have the Supreme Court toss it out. Here is the thing, you can't go to the Supreme Court with some random request to rule on a principle they…

> asserting that Eich might have supported Prop 8 because he really does support gay marriage through some complicated nonsense.

This is a really weird, silly rationalization. Don't you think he would have said something to this effect when this blew up on Twitter? You think he's just sitting there on his hands going "Jeez, I wish there was something I could do to convince people that I'm not actually a horrible bigot, but instead have complex and inscrutable plans for a massive Supreme Court precedent in five years. Oh well!"

> by choosing not to work at the company (which doesn't take the same position) your actions put you at risk of committing the same sins that a hiring manager might make of choosing not to hire someone because of a difference of opinion.

You can't seriously be asserting that it's a "sin" for me to consider not working for someone who doesn't respect my or my peers' rights, let alone one on equal footing to employment discrimination. That's complete and utter bullshit. It's my right to vote with my feet, just as much as it would be a bigot's right to not work for me.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#86

Post by pc86 »

14113 wrote: post #65
smirksirlot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something that needs to be said about political beliefs that stomp on the very fiber of my being. Sure. I would work with these people and execute what I need to do. But knowing what they believe in and the extent of which they would act to remove/restrict rights that I should have ultimately will prevent me from wanting to get to know them, to interact with them beyond a strictly professional capacity. From…

I agree that I wouldn't want to work with someone who supports prop 8, however there's a world of difference between that and having a different opinion on DRM.

I think it's a safe assumption that we're referring to extremely divisive issues like abortion, marriage equality, civil rights, etc.

Edit: Not to say DRM isn't an important (and potentially divisive?) issue, just not nearly to the same scale.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#87

Post by lawnchair_larry »

pnathan wrote: post #55
michaelochurch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prop 8 was disgusting, but I would have more reservations about working for a company that fired someone over his political beliefs, than at one that happened to have a conservative CTO. If I work for a company that takes a cavalier approach to firing, I'm putting my career at risk. But as long as there aren't other character issues, I don't think a conservative CTO is damning. They might not even know; it's not real…

+1. > I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it -- Attributed to Voltaire. IMO, that perspective is one of the keystones of our culture, and not to be thrown away lightly.

You should understand that does not apply here. That quote doesn't extend to defending intolerance, because it is wholly incompatible with it.

This isn't surprising, but context is often lost with that quote. Think about it for a second, how can you advocate that you would defend one's freedom to limit one's freedom?

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#88

Post by pc86 »

mrgoldenbrown wrote: post #47
onemorepassword wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's cultural context, but in my book homophobia has nothing to do with legitimate political beliefs. Being conservative has nothing at all to do with bigotry. Promoting hatred and discrimination towards any group that is part of your (potential) employees and their friends and families would be good reason to fire someone as far as I'm concerned.

There's no maybe about it, to me. Cultural context is always going to define what a legitimate political belief is. Unless you believe that there is an objective definition of good and evil that exists outside human culture.

And let's be honest, chances are you believe that you are much more likely to be in favor of Prop 8 than against it.[0]

[0] Just to be clear: I'm saying if you have that absolutist view you are much more likely to be fundamentally religious, and an order of magnitude more likely to be opposed to gay marriage.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#89

Post by lawnchair_larry »

sodomizer wrote: post #15
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

I think it's a terrible idea to judge other people's political decisions until you've walked a mile in their shoes. If you are a professional, you should be ready to work with anyone, not just the people who agree with you. Your view is not objectively correct. To insist otherwise is fascism.

What if a CTO made a donation to a campaign to support fascism, this prospective employee was opposed to fascism, and cited this as the reason they would not work for said CTOs company.

Would you call that prospective employee a fascist?

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#90

Post by yew »

ben0x539 wrote: post #41
jiggy2011 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make a difference what the position of the person who's views you disagree with holds? I can sort of understand saying "I don't want to work to make our CEO richer because he will spend the money promoting causes I hate". But what about co-workers or subordinates? Would you be disturbed because the guy who cleans the floor holds controversial views? Also bear in mind that employees will leave and be replaced…

> he will spend the money promoting causes I hate > you're never going to get people who don't disagree on some divisive issue I'm not sure you appreciate how deeply these issues affect the people they're about. It's not just talking points for everybody.

Everyone believes that it 'isn't just a talking point'. Everyone believes that 'some things are clearly subjective, but come on, really, this clearly isn't even worth calling an idea'.

The pity is, no one can agree on what 'it' is. What everyone also has is a different idea about what 'obviously has to stop NOW'.

"You're free to believe whatever you want, as long as in effect it's indistinguishable from believing the same thing as me" is going to get you nowhere, fast.

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