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I Stand With Trolls

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Re: I Stand With Trolls

#71

Post by supercanuck »

edw519 wrote: post #54

...but we are moving more and more to a transparent society... This key issue isn't whether or not things are changing (they are) or whether it's good or bad (that's debatable). The key issue is who gets to decide . If I want to tell the world a million things about myself, that's my business. But if someone else wants to tell the world things about me (especially if they know it's personal or private), then that's d…

For those like me who didn't understand the feathers reference, the analogy of the sage is that gathering up those feathers is the equivalent of taking back what you said. Once it has been said, it is out there forever, the damage has been done.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#72

Post by mrgoldenbrown »

kevinpet wrote: post #46
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

I'm pretty sure that you are someone I would not want to work with, because while I may disagree with Eich politically, I find your inability to separate the personal and professional spheres much more alarming. I'm not referring to your personal dislike for working with someone who supported prop 8, I'm referring to your internalizing and remembering that one particular non-politician supported it, and taking the ti…

First of all, I think political views are part of your public persona, especially when you've donated a huge chunk of money towards them. I don't think I could have a professional relationship with someone who was actively campaigning to make my life miserable.

If my boss were donating money to groups trying to strip civil rights from people with Irish ancestry, which I happen to have, could you really fault me for not wanting to work with them?

The phrase "disagree politically" sounds very civilized and sterile. But in practical terms you are asking me to ignore the fact that my boss views me as an inferior being, and holds this feeling so strongly that it's worth spending $1000 to punish me and others like me by legally stripping away my rights.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#73

Post by WilliamMayor »

supercanuck wrote: post #71
edw519 wrote: post #54

...but we are moving more and more to a transparent society... This key issue isn't whether or not things are changing (they are) or whether it's good or bad (that's debatable). The key issue is who gets to decide . If I want to tell the world a million things about myself, that's my business. But if someone else wants to tell the world things about me (especially if they know it's personal or private), then that's d…

For those like me who didn't understand the feathers reference, the analogy of the sage is that gathering up those feathers is the equivalent of taking back what you said. Once it has been said, it is out there forever, the damage has been done.

I think it also means that gossip spreads really far and you never know where all those feathers end up. Even if you could take back what you say, it's hard to find where the gossip has spread to.

I'm reminded of the Friends episode where Ross sleeps with the copy girl.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#74

Post by coldpie »

lubujackson wrote: post #60
michaelochurch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prop 8 was disgusting, but I would have more reservations about working for a company that fired someone over his political beliefs, than at one that happened to have a conservative CTO. If I work for a company that takes a cavalier approach to firing, I'm putting my career at risk. But as long as there aren't other character issues, I don't think a conservative CTO is damning. They might not even know; it's not real…

To some of the sub-comments to this: Not at all (AT ALL) defending Prop 8 here, but where do you draw the line in cutting these people out of your life? Take the issue of abortion, which is easier to see that there are no easy answers. You either believe that abortion is MURDER or stopping abortion curtails PERSONAL LIBERTY for all women. Either way, people are defending a highly moral position and you can argue agai…

There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices.

The abortion debate is basically a balancing act between two undesirable outcomes. No one likes abortions, but no one (by simple definition) wants unwanted children, either. Choosing either outcome is very much a moral gray area; how do you know you've made the correct decision? I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else, but I completely understand where the other side is coming from.

On the other hand, there is no such balancing act in same sex marriage. It is an entirely positive, beneficial expression of love between two individuals. There is no choosing a lesser evil, it's simply a good thing. Why would any reasonable person choose to prevent a good thing for absolutely no reason at all? I can't understand the other side at all, because they aren't using any sort of logic to arrive at their conclusion.

Frankly, very few issues these days are as stark right-and-wrong as same sex marriage is. I think it's entirely reasonable to shun and openly shame homophobes in 2013. Perhaps you have the patience to sit down and try to talk with these lunatics, but I don't have that kind of patience. Just like racists, homophobes deserve nothing but derision, and just like slavers, they deserve to ultimately be nothing more than a chapter in a civil rights history text. I won't have them in my life, and I am missing nothing by their exclusion.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#75

Post by cdmoyer »

supercanuck wrote: post #71
edw519 wrote: post #54

...but we are moving more and more to a transparent society... This key issue isn't whether or not things are changing (they are) or whether it's good or bad (that's debatable). The key issue is who gets to decide . If I want to tell the world a million things about myself, that's my business. But if someone else wants to tell the world things about me (especially if they know it's personal or private), then that's d…

For those like me who didn't understand the feathers reference, the analogy of the sage is that gathering up those feathers is the equivalent of taking back what you said. Once it has been said, it is out there forever, the damage has been done.

Hmm. I also took from it that the man should just go spend time doing something other than gossiping. Say a task that would take a long time, like gathering the feathers.

(ie. you can be less transparent by spending your time doing rather than talking.)

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#76

Post by coldpie »

kevingadd wrote: post #52
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

Mozilla is one of the safest and most welcoming places to work in software, regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity. Their actions, collectively as an organization, speak for themselves. But yeah, one of their employees happens to hold personal beliefs you disagree with. That means he should be fired regardless of job performance? How does that make any sense? It's one thing to say that he directly t…

>It's one thing to say that he ... has openly said harmful, awful things in public. But neither of those things are true of Brendan Eich.

Yes, it is. Look up Prop 8 supporter commercials. Brendan Eich paid for those.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#77

Post by ben0x539 »

DannyBee wrote: post #62
ben0x539 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's not fascism to refuse to work with/for people whose polics are aimed at concretely restricting your civil liberties, in a way that might have affected your day-to-day life for the rest of your life.

This is strange, because everyone has a different interpretation of what civil liberties are. There are few any large set of people actually agree on gun control, prayer in schools/government, searches by the government/TSA/whatever There is a lot of subjective disagreement over exactly what liberties exist, and their limits. As the parent said, if you really think you have an objectively correct view of what civil l…

I genuinely think that it's objectively correct that some minority must not be banned from being able to marry. I really don't think you can spin that into fascism.

To put it more drastically, just because someone dares to stand up to their oppressors, they are not immediately oppressing anyone themselves.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#78

Post by jiggy2011 »

coldpie wrote: post #74
lubujackson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some of the sub-comments to this: Not at all (AT ALL) defending Prop 8 here, but where do you draw the line in cutting these people out of your life? Take the issue of abortion, which is easier to see that there are no easy answers. You either believe that abortion is MURDER or stopping abortion curtails PERSONAL LIBERTY for all women. Either way, people are defending a highly moral position and you can argue agai…

There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices. The abortion debate is basically a balancing act between two undesirable outcomes. No one likes abortions, but no one (by simple definition) wants unwanted children, either. Choosing either outcome is very much a moral gray area; how do you know you've made the correct decision? I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else, b…

Problem is plenty of people aren't reasonable, or may be reasonable but refuse to apply reason to some discussions; you can probably thank religion for that.

It is entirely possible that future generations will look back on the debate and just laugh at it as we laugh at people who used to burn witches. You will certainly find people today who would think it was disgusting and offensive to even think of supporting gay marriage and these people have some considerable % of the money and votes so you can't really dismiss them.

So the purpose should not be to enforce views, but to enforce certain actions. So you can be as racist as you want , but you can't refuse somebody a job on the basis of race.

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#79

Post by riggins »

sodomizer wrote: post #15
zacharyvoase wrote: post #10

Just an anecdote, which I know is not the singular form of 'data', but still: I respect Mozilla as a company, but have no desire to work there (despite there being a lot of technology fit) because the CTO, Brendan Eich, made a donation of $1,000 to support Prop 8—a 2008 California ballot measure which banned gay marriage. Sure, I understood that his views were not those of his employer. But that doesn't make it easie…

I think it's a terrible idea to judge other people's political decisions until you've walked a mile in their shoes. If you are a professional, you should be ready to work with anyone, not just the people who agree with you. Your view is not objectively correct. To insist otherwise is fascism.

"Your view is not objectively correct. To insist otherwise is fascism."

it's safe to say I'm not sure what you mean.

certainly if someone says 'we spend 20% of federal outlays on welfare' and I say 'no, it's about half that', one or both, are objectively wrong.

anyway, what do you mean?

Re: I Stand With Trolls

#80

Post by jerf »

coldpie wrote: post #74
lubujackson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some of the sub-comments to this: Not at all (AT ALL) defending Prop 8 here, but where do you draw the line in cutting these people out of your life? Take the issue of abortion, which is easier to see that there are no easy answers. You either believe that abortion is MURDER or stopping abortion curtails PERSONAL LIBERTY for all women. Either way, people are defending a highly moral position and you can argue agai…

There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices. The abortion debate is basically a balancing act between two undesirable outcomes. No one likes abortions, but no one (by simple definition) wants unwanted children, either. Choosing either outcome is very much a moral gray area; how do you know you've made the correct decision? I don't think anyone has the right to make that decision for someone else, b…

"There is pretty clearly a line between those two moral choices"... to coldpie.

"Frankly, very few issues these days are as stark right-and-wrong as same sex marriage is"... for coldpie.

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