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Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

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Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#121
post #8

And if it has? Well, then the statistical likelihood is that we're located somewhere in that chain of simulations within simulations. The alternative - that we're the first civilisation, in the first universe - is virtually (no pun intended) absurd. wrong. there are multiple alternatives; we are the nth civilization in a real universe, we are the nth to the nth civilization in the multiverse, etc. Sloppy sensationali…

The quote is a somewhat poor rephrasing of a more solid argument from this paper:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf

Anyway, your objection here isn't actually relevant as far as I can tell. It's a probabilistic argument about the number of real minds vs. the number of simulated minds, and the bulk of the "proof" is in demonstrating that, under certain assumptions, the number of simulated minds would be so high in comparison to the number of real minds that you'd almost be forced to conclude that you are simulated.

It really doesn't have anything to do with "universes inside universes."

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#122

Or the less click-baity headline: "Physicists to Test if Universe is Computable"

Of course it's computable. Planets aren't going to orbit by themselves; something has to add up all those force vectors for every molecule everywhere. I think the question is whether the compution is discrete (i.e., cheats) or is everywhere continuous.

Are you sure? Is the universe described by an equation s=t*v, v=10 untrue unless we compute it? Does moving electrons on a CPU die suddenly give it meaning? Do scraps of graphite left on paper by a pencil? The simplest turing complete cellular automaton can be computed using ordinary rocks.

Are there no infinitely many natural numbers unless we observe them? And then finally is actually computing a universe described by a set and a step function the only way to make it real? Is it not "real" by simply being possible?

As for discreteness of time, in quantum mechanics changes in state are modeled by square matrices over complex numbers. GL(n, C) is complete - for every matrix M you also have M^1/2, representing half the state chance. It follows that our time, at conceptual level, is at least as "dense" as rational numbers.

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#123

Some believe that if you really proved that the universe was a simulation, the universe would change into a newer and better simulation. Evidence suggests this has happened before.

What are some examples of the evidence?

I think OP is (mis)quoting The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#124
post #8

And if it has? Well, then the statistical likelihood is that we're located somewhere in that chain of simulations within simulations. The alternative - that we're the first civilisation, in the first universe - is virtually (no pun intended) absurd. wrong. there are multiple alternatives; we are the nth civilization in a real universe, we are the nth to the nth civilization in the multiverse, etc. Sloppy sensationali…

I've always felt there's something deeply fallacious -- or hopelessly wrapped up in human psychology -- about taking a representation of a virtual world that we might create and treating it as on par with the actual universe. It's almost like saying "we're probably characters in a novel," since for every universe there are many novels. Or like that old proof that God exists because he has every desirable quality, inc…

There is a similar argument against AI. That a computer can't "feel" or experience any of the sensations we do. If you type 'emotional_state = "happy"', does that mean your computer feels happiness? Even if you have a complex simulation of neurons, if you zoom in, all you will see is little electrons bouncing through various logic gates and ending up in some kind of pattern.

But the thing is, the exact same thing is true for your brain too! If you zoom in on your brain you will find nothing more than electrical impulses and neurons that strengthen or weaken their connection to other neurons. If the neurons were suddenly replaced with little computers that performed exactly the same, you wouldn't feel any different. You would still experience emotions and feel sensations and have no idea any parts had been swapped under the hood, unless you looked.

I don't know why but this idea is confusing to me. This XKCD http://xkcd.com/505/ is a good example. My consciousness could be a bunch of static rocks and a man placing new rows based on simple rules. I find this thought disturbing, but there isn't anything fundamentally different between that, a computer simulation, and a world of a bunch of atoms hitting each other, following simple physical laws.

Different beings could exist in all three universes. And each would feel emotions and sensations and all that. And each would argue about how beings just like them in the other universes "don't really exist" like they do.

So how is this different from a character in a novel or a variable in a computer set to "happy"? I honestly don't know. The character in a book is completely static. Whatever is written in the pages, it isn't changing, it isn't taking input and producing output. But the rows of rocks are static too after all. They don't take any input from the outside world either. They change over a dimension of space, each new row one foot to the right of the last. As do the characters in a book. Each paragraph moves the characters forward through their own dimension of time. Maybe the process that creates the rows of rocks, the man following simple rules, is what makes it conscious. But the book is created by a writer following a process too, does that make it conscious?

The only thing I can think of is that the character in the book is far simpler than a human. Words that say "john is happy" is similar to setting a variable on your computer equal to "happy". Happiness in a human is far more complex, involving tons of interactions between neurons. But this answer isn't satisfactory to me. Complexity isn't what makes something intelligent or conscious after all.

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#125
Isn't it obvious for most that for an advanced enough simulation, it is impossible to prove that you are in a simulation from inside the simulation? Even if we find proof that our current model of reality is wrong, it would only mean we need to search for another model of reality, we can't just say "but out theory doesn't actually match the reality because the reality is actually a simulation that computes approximations for some cases".

Imagine if Einstein thought something (let's say for the sake of argument that he had access to some real close-to-speed-of-light experiments): "classical mechanics, isn't wrong, but predictions for close-to-the-speed-of-light experiments don't match the reality because we live in a simulation and the resource constraints forced by the computations needed for the simulation computer to do for such cases make it distort things through heuristic approximations ...and because we live in a simulation I can further pursue my other line of work, the genetic theory of Leprechauns and Fairies...".

Now I actually believe the plausability of the simulation theory, unfalsifiable as it may be, and all, but I think such simulations wouldn't be run for "fun" alone: if we're in a simulation, we're either (a) "babies" in nursery that probably involve multiple existences in multiple simulations until we are "prepared" for the "top-level reality" or (b) we and our universes are a very advanced form of... future "bitcoin miners" :| (I sincerely hope for either (a) or the plain ol "reality is real" theory, but one can never now...)

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#126
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> learn to run simulations on the scale of a universe Pretty sure under our current understanding of physics, it's impossible to simulate a universe like our own within our own.

>impossible to simulate a universe like our own within our own Impossible to perfectly model a universe , but not impossible to simulate something that looks like a tiny part of a universe.

I imagine it would be like a computer game, where you only had to simulate the universe from the point of view of the user. This would fit nicely with the Copenhagen interpretation.

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#127
post #121
post #8

And if it has? Well, then the statistical likelihood is that we're located somewhere in that chain of simulations within simulations. The alternative - that we're the first civilisation, in the first universe - is virtually (no pun intended) absurd. wrong. there are multiple alternatives; we are the nth civilization in a real universe, we are the nth to the nth civilization in the multiverse, etc. Sloppy sensationali…

The quote is a somewhat poor rephrasing of a more solid argument from this paper: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf Anyway, your objection here isn't actually relevant as far as I can tell. It's a probabilistic argument about the number of real minds vs. the number of simulated minds, and the bulk of the "proof" is in demonstrating that, under certain assumptions, the number of simulated minds would b…

...and the main flaw of this still remains: we don't know the probabilities of a very advanced civilization running a simulation because we can have no idea of whether this would be interesting for them to do, we can't predict what would their goals and motivations be. Out great-great-...-great-grandchildren will not just be super-smart versions of us, they will have concepts and goals we cannot even imagine! A simulation of us, depressing as it may be to think it this way, would be just as interesting for them as an ant-farm to a little boy - he'd get bored of it quickly because he's as far away evolutionary speaking from ants as these super-iteligent beings would be from us, and that wouldn't make for a large number of ant-farms simply because ant-farms will be boring and useless...

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#129
post #127
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote is a somewhat poor rephrasing of a more solid argument from this paper: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf Anyway, your objection here isn't actually relevant as far as I can tell. It's a probabilistic argument about the number of real minds vs. the number of simulated minds, and the bulk of the "proof" is in demonstrating that, under certain assumptions, the number of simulated minds would b…

...and the main flaw of this still remains: we don't know the probabilities of a very advanced civilization running a simulation because we can have no idea of whether this would be interesting for them to do, we can't predict what would their goals and motivations be . Out great-great-...-great-grandchildren will not just be super-smart versions of us, they will have concepts and goals we cannot even imagine! A simu…

[deleted]

Re: Physicists To Test If Universe Is A Computer Simulation

#130

I've always thought that quantum theory provided some decent evidence for this. Instead of always computing every value for every result, the universe does so only when things are "observed", saving on computation.

Why would "saving" be valued, metaphysically?

So the simulation would take far less computational resources.
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