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Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

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Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#61
post #25

I'd like to suggest that all the lessons learned here are precisely what Lean Startup teaches-- with techniques that are meant to prevent you from spending two years in a death spiral. Segue to edit of my standard rant on this subject: (originally posted on: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3429906 ) MVP != half assed, cheap, shitty product. It is exactly what it says: a minimum viable product, key word being viab…

Totally. Take the complaint about the mobile app. They built a mobile app that nobody wanted, and then blamed Lean!

"Nevertheless as devout Lean Startup followers, we kept building, measuring, and learning. Hidden inside our minimum viable product was a separate mobile application to gather data on logic model performance. This mobile app mystified our customers. Why didn’t we let them input data online at their desks as a starting step?"

On what planet can you be doing Lean development and get as far as building an entire app that not one of your customer wants with features that none of them needs? How can anything be "hidden"?

Wow. Was this published April 1st?

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#62
Wow, I wasn't sure if that blog post was some sarcasm from some trolls or a real article.

I could quote lots of parts, but here's one of the funniest ones:

>> But intelligent iteration wasn’t possible because of our obese development costs, which left us without any funds to product iterations.

>> We wasted money democratically across developers, patents, e-mail platforms, and a sales pipeline tool

>> Hidden inside our minimum viable product was a separate mobile application to gather data on logic model performance.

The sad part in it is how they blame the process for their failure when they got it all wrong.

However, one thing I've got from this article is how hard it is to create a good mvp. The balance between Quality vs Learning vs Minimum is tricky and highly dependent of your customer. I.e. You create MVPs to learn fast so you can iterate faster.. but since you're still trying to validate your hypothesis, it's hard to decide what is really minimal or valuable.

I guess MVPs is an over-used word.. I prefer prototype: A first or preliminary model of something, esp. a machine, from which other forms are developed or copied. Basically, you use prototypes to iterate really fast and test your assumptions, and then, you build a mvp from what you've learned.

I prefer prototype because it's clear on both side that it's not the real product. It's a temporary phase to test the ideas. But again.. way easier to say than to do. I'm currently in that "prototype vs MVPs" phase and I'm struggling on determining the best next step. The fact that I'm working with health professionals with sensitive and highly important information clearly doesn't help.

That would be amazing if a lean expert reading this would feel generous enough with their time to help me with that "next important step" (phzbox at gmail).

Anyhow, thanks to Casca for sharing his experience.. Learning from failures is more often than not better than trying to copy a successful strategy.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#63

It may well be that your product just wasn't needed or that your focus was wrong, for instance customers might have wanted feature y before feature x: It is not uncommon to find it difficult to work out what customers want in isolation. (Shameless plug alert!)We encountered this several times in our own failed startups where we have built the best software the world has never seen and decided to create WillThisFly? t…

But since anyone hoping to make a new product should be talking to his real potential customers, why would he not talk to them directly, instead of say, trying to get them to use WTF?

Anyone other than his real-life potential customers giving him feedback is.. well, not going to give him the feedback he needs, no matter how well-intentioned he is.

Then there's the issue of someone potentially stealing your idea, etc.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#64
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

Well, it depends on your value of success. At my last startup, as I explain in the linked talk above, we used Lean Startup techniques to kill a number of ideas that we would otherwise have implemented. The startup still didn't make it, so you could call it a failure, but the customer development and iterative market-testing techniques gave us many more tries for the same money, so I am very happy we used them.

But if you want a more traditional success story, I'd suggest Boxbee:

https://boxbee.com/

I was a mentor at a Lean Startup Machine event ~18 months ago where I met the founder. He had a very hazy idea, and over the course of the weekend refined it into something more focused. He then used the Lean Startup techniques to build a business that had revenue from the first month, and was quickly in the black. Relentlessly refining both the user experience and the back end, he found product-market fit and came up with a sustainable plan. And he did this all in his spare time, mainly with his own money.

A month or so ago he pitched it at Jason Calcanis's LAUNCH conference and took first place. Now he's raising money to build an infrastructure well beyond the initial MVP-grade product.

But you can also look at historical examples. It's important to note that none of the Lean Startup techniques are new. It's meant to be a crystallization of things that some people were doing before, but that had never really been talked about. At the local Lean Startup Circle event, we had the founders of Dropbox and Cafe Press talk about how they worked, and it was very much in the start-small-and-iterate-relentlessly style that the Lean Startup folks are promoting.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#65
post #49
post #25

I'd like to suggest that all the lessons learned here are precisely what Lean Startup teaches-- with techniques that are meant to prevent you from spending two years in a death spiral. Segue to edit of my standard rant on this subject: (originally posted on: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3429906 ) MVP != half assed, cheap, shitty product. It is exactly what it says: a minimum viable product, key word being viab…

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

No, it's not just a question of Lean Startup education. I am questioning the rituals. The world doesn't work according to a theory, however much you might wish it does. Clients couldn't care less about Lean Startup, MVP, XP, unit tests etc. This idea that you can experiment on clients (in my humble experience) is a dangerous delusion. The comment about "couldn't fathom" is unprofessional (and ludicrous given my resume). Please: listen more, lecture less. Cheers.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#66

Oh, so now the whole "we fucked up so let's blame the tools/methodology" has arrived at Lean Startup? Plus ça change... Here's a wonderful nugget: "too often Agile development methodologies are used to excuse lack of process and planning" . The irony is strong in this one. The next book on Lean should be a dictionary with just a single word explained in way even a 3 year old can understand: " viable "

Viable means, strictly, able to live at birth, especially, in relation to a foetus (but not a 3-year old?). Being born doesn't mean you will survive. So, minimum viable product is a poor term, implying disrespect for your customers. Minimum desirable product (from your customer's perspective) reflects the standard required.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#67

I sympathize with the author. Lean Startup is a very good tool that should be in your toolbox, but it's being sold and resold as "the way". It's not the only way, and it doesn't guarantee success, not more so that knowing the scientific method guarantees you a Nobel prize, or a published paper. Lean methods make some implicit assumptions about the cost of finding early adopters and building MVPs, and each entrepreneu…

It's slightly more than than hill climbing. More like simulated annealing.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#68

It may well be that your product just wasn't needed or that your focus was wrong, for instance customers might have wanted feature y before feature x: It is not uncommon to find it difficult to work out what customers want in isolation. (Shameless plug alert!)We encountered this several times in our own failed startups where we have built the best software the world has never seen and decided to create WillThisFly? t…

But since anyone hoping to make a new product should be talking to his real potential customers, why would he not talk to them directly , instead of say, trying to get them to use WTF? Anyone other than his real-life potential customers giving him feedback is.. well, not going to give him the feedback he needs, no matter how well-intentioned he is. Then there's the issue of someone potentially stealing your idea, etc…

What WTF provides is the ability to come up with an idea and get a quick gauge as to whether it has merit (it works with projects at various stages from new ideas to coming up with new features for existing projects and anything in-between).

For example, you have likely heard of "Facebook killer" apps and "New way to organize your inbox"-type ideas in the past and the general reaction is "Oh ffs, not another clone" but most ideas still have some merit even if their initial briefs are rather ambitious and somewhat tenuous.

Your Facebook killer may be too ambitious but with a bit of focus you may be able to come up with a smaller, more niche product that benefits a particular demographic given feedback and some direction.

This is what WTF provides: Sure, it will not give you a definite "If you build it, they will come" answer but it might just be able to help you salvage something that doesn't look like it is going anywhere.

In addition to helping you shape a project, it may also prevent you from spending time and money on something that just will not work as a result of feedback so you will know fast if it has any potential before spending time and money on it.

AS to stealing your idea, this is rarely the case. The thing that sinks most projects is lack of focus and aiming in the wrong direction - something WTF is designed to help prevent.

Thanks very much for your insight... this is exactly what WTF was designed for.

Mick

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#70
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

I would say that I have.

It's a B2B product that has a couple substantial value adds over the competition. I created the MVP and got a core group of people in a paid beta. There were tons of bugs, but because of the unique value add I offered everyone was more than willing to put up for it and pay for it (and they knew they would get locked in at beta pricing for when it improved).

I was then able to quickly and easily iterate fixes and improvements, based on my vision as well as what I heard from my paying customers.

So on launch day I was already profitable, I knew what my users wanted, all the major bugs were completely sorted out, and I had ~100 paying beta users (all of whom were referred directly by me or by word of mouth through a beta user) who felt like they had a vested interest in the success of the product who helped me reach a critical mass.

With that being said I don't consider my company to be a lean startup (I hate labels like that), and I didn't set out to do a lean startup, but a lot of what I did is consistent with the lean startup approach.

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