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Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

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Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#51

Post by bjansn »

It's great you're openly talking about this! We need more people with stories on failure, because we learn more from that than success stories.

There is a lot of stuff in the post and the comments about Lean Startup, but I want to jump in on this the wish expressed 'The Jason Fried Fantasy'. Specifically this:

We would combine simple, opinionated software with crisp software copywriting and a low-touch online sales model.

This limits your options. I think the product was too niche to be a 37signals 'sell to the fortune 5 million' product. I'm passionate about 37signals, but it might be difficult to apply to niche markets that require aggresive sales / long deal flows.

Now you also point out:

For every customer or prospect we talked with, the risks of innovation (failure and losing their job) far outweigh the hypothetical benefits we proclaimed. Customers just want reasonably priced software that does its job, not helping you launch your Lean Startup adventure.

Now assume you've already validated the problem. Probably you were getting the wrong people in your sales funnel. Basically if people fear to lose the job, you need to move up in the companies hierarchy. Look for the manager above him and keep going. Or start at the top and work down if possible. But keep talking until someone keeps calling you back to have their problem solved. Steve Blanks Customer Development talks about this as well.

About the quality of the MVP. It's better to ship a half product than a full featured half working product. From what I read in your post a lot of people weren't feeling safe to introduce this in the organization because it was an immature product. You solve this by narrowing down the featureset or display 'upcoming features' and involve people in developing further. But this is different per market, B2B (as mentioned in another comment) is different than consumers.

Edit: fixed markup.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#52

Post by nashequilibrium »

wpietri wrote: post #49
thesash wrote: post #25

I'd like to suggest that all the lessons learned here are precisely what Lean Startup teaches-- with techniques that are meant to prevent you from spending two years in a death spiral. Segue to edit of my standard rant on this subject: (originally posted on: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3429906 ) MVP != half assed, cheap, shitty product. It is exactly what it says: a minimum viable product, key word being viab…

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#54

Post by bjansn »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #52
wpietri wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

By what measure do you want to define if startups have implemented it successfully?

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#55

Post by codyZ »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #52
wpietri wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

Talking about business, entrepreneurship is fun. Doing it is another. Separates the Men from the boys.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#57

Post by lelandbatey »

bjansn wrote: post #54
nashequilibrium wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

By what measure do you want to define if startups have implemented it successfully?

I'm not the parent poster, but I'd basically say: are there any examples at all? Even if we're really loose with what qualifies as "lean startup" are there any examples anyone would be willing to share?

I don't mean to imply that there aren't any, but I just haven't heard of any.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#58

Post by j4ustin »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #52
wpietri wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things they did that are obviously wrong from the Lean Startup perspective. And then he goes and blames the Lean Startup material, rather than their understanding of it. For example, his notion that product management is supposed to be casual and erratic is not what the Lean Startup approach suggests. The essence of the approach is in proving that customers really need something befor…

The problem I have is that everyone can rap the lean startup principles but when you ask who has successfully implemented lean startup, nobody says yes. How many people do you guys personally know that have successfully implemented lean startup?

Jason Cohen with WPEngine. Great lean startup. They rock, and are profitable.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#59

Post by j4ustin »

lelandbatey wrote: post #57
bjansn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what measure do you want to define if startups have implemented it successfully?

I'm not the parent poster, but I'd basically say: are there any examples at all? Even if we're really loose with what qualifies as "lean startup" are there any examples anyone would be willing to share? I don't mean to imply that there aren't any, but I just haven't heard of any.

If you read The Lean Startup there are examples in there. I mentioned above WPEngine did it, but also look at Food on the Table. These stories show the lean startup done right. The story above is so riddled with holes. It's like the guys heard some buzzwords, read a wikipedia page, and ran with their limited understanding of it.

Re: Fat startup: Learn the lessons of my failed Lean Startup

#60

Post by Ologn »

I think "The Lean Startup" is a good book - it presents a model for creating a successful business which diverges from older more traditional business thinking. Some successful technology companies feel the same way. I also think books like this should be read as guideposts, not as some orthodoxy. If a suggestion from the book goes against particular circumstances or common sense, you do what your common sense tells you.

Nonetheless, they seem to have missed important lessons from the book. Or re-learned them rather. The odd thing is they then claim the book does not cover these things, and distracted them from these problems. I don't understand why this is said, since the book does cover these things.

The blog post says:

> Lean Startup principles distracted us from four livelihood-threatening fundamentals. First, you need rigorous product management. Don’t speculate. Build no feature unless you understand it thoroughly and have unshakeable evidence that multiple customers need it --urgently.

But this lesson learned is one of the Lean Startup principles.

From "The Lean Startup": "For example, how many features do we really need to include to appeal to early adopters? Every extra feature is a form of waste, and if we delay the test for these extra features, it comes with a tremendous potential cost in terms of learning and cycle time. The lesson of the MVP is that any additional work beyond what was required to start learning is waste, no matter how important it might have seemed at the time."

...I quote only one paragraph from the Lean Startup, but the idea about no excessive features in an MVP is repeated throughout the book.

It's possible the Lean Startup approach has some holes in it, but warning against too many features in an MVP is not one of them.

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