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The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

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Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#131

Post by Shivetya »

greenyoda wrote: post #32
dpeck wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British resolve is something that those of us across the pond seem to have lost, or perhaps it is something that was developed in the British people during the terrible days of WW1 and WW2. We here tend to work more of a spirit of freak-outery and cynicism. And as much as it annoys me, I think its more a symptom of how relatively little most of us and our ancestors have had to worry about in the US as much of our…

I saw no shortage of resolve in NYC after 9/11. Just as untog said of London, we all went to work the next day and carried on with our lives.

If anything the people move on, its politicians and those in power who seem to want to exploit a situation. I tire so much of being told I should be scared, let alone how they very same people who could not prevent the issue suddenly more than willing to disrupt my life going forward and tell me its in my best interest they do so.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#132

Post by venomsnake »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #129
venomsnake wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tried in a federal court with the full rights and protections defined by the US constitution etc etc. Killing them like osama, blasting them with a drone or detaining them in gitmo means the terrorist have won, because they have dragged the system down to their own level. Also it still may be not an act of terror. Just some wackos that decide it is fun to blow stuff up. They don't have a need for a political agenda o…

"Killing them like osama[...] means the terrorist have won," I don't understand the trouble you have with the Osama situation. The US attempted to apprehend Osama so they could bring him to justice but he resisted and was shot to death. How would you have handled that situation?

I would have tortured him then executed him by slow pig blood transfusion. But I am not a good man. I like revenge.

And yet I think that the most powerful and expensive military in the world should have found a way to properly extract him. I am not convinced that the way it was handled brought the needed closure to the 9/11 events. It just proved that US was better at targeted killing than Al Caida or whatever that ragtag bunch was called.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#133

Post by twoodfin »

afhof wrote: post #19

Its too bad that most people don't have a basic appreciation of statistics or probability. Its too bad Schneier only spends a tiny paragraph on it: "Even though this will be in the news for weeks, we should recognize this for what it is: a rare event". The chance that a person will die from a bombing, or be shot, or their plane crash, or a hurricane kill them is so small that there is almost NO reason to be afraid of…

This wasn't just a few hundred people being injured or killed: This event, by its targeted and spectacular nature, negatively affected hundreds of thousands of people. Add together the costly, chaotic disruptions for all those individuals, and you don't need many of these "rare" events to make terrorism a much more significant problem than you're making it out to be.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#134

Post by twoodfin »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #130
fmkamchatka wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a matter of statistics or probability: it's just easier said when you're not directly affected by the events. For me personally, I completely agree when reading this article but I'm here, on the west coast, not feeling threatened directly and knowing my friends are now safe. But what if you were passing the finish line as these devices exploded. You might well be the most rationale person in the wo…

I agree with you that refusing to be terrorized is borderline impossible for the people who got hurt in the blast or their closest family and friends. The article is aimed at the rest, the majority who can potentially either panick or just carry on.

There's nothing in-between? Nobody's panicking, as far as I can tell, but an awful lot of people seem ready to describe any response as panic-inspired.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#135

Post by andyjohnson0 »

dublinben wrote: post #38
jlgreco wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think that could bring "The Fall of New Rome"? An attack a hundred times more deadly (which would be something like 3% of NYC's population dead, if my mental math does not betray me, or something a little less than 10x The Blitz.) than 9/11 would be a tragedy with only a few parallels in history. It would be an astronomically staggering blow to our economy. Hell, the mangled remains of the economy after su…

Some people just like waiting for the barbarians. Even if there aren't any barbarians out there.

For those who don't get your reference, Waiting for the Barbarians is a poem by C P Cavafy.

http://www.cavafy.com/poems/content.asp?id=119&cat=1

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#136

Post by twoodfin »

rurounijones wrote: post #5

Glad this got posted quickly. I can already see the glee in intelligence / law enforcement agencys' eyes as they think how they can use this latest incident as reasoning for more over-arching powers. For a long time Londoners had to put up with IRA bombs but "Kept calm and carried on" (to use the phrase). I hope the US can follow suit. [EDIT] Changed "secret service" to "intelligence / law enforcement agencies" to av…

This is a non-sequitur. Just because people in London didn't panic (and neither have I seen much that could aptly be described as "panic" in the U.S.), it doesn't follow that the British authorities didn't acquire more security and policing powers to deal with the IRA.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#137

Post by michaelochurch »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #61

"It turns out that terrorism is much harder than most people think. It's hard to find willing terrorists, it's hard to put a plot together, it's hard to get materials, and it's hard to execute a workable plan. As a collective group, terrorists are dumb, and they make dumb mistakes; criminal masterminds are another myth from movies and comic books." He is very wrong. He is confusing foot soldiers with their leaders. T…

Foreign terrorism is rare, because it's hard to carry such a thing out in an alien land, and very few people are interested in foreign aggression that is clearly (a) targeted toward civilians, (b) illegal by any national standard, and (c) not part of any coherent political agenda, but merely an artifact of unfocused anger. Domestic terrorism (where the foot soldiers believe they're an occupied people and often see themselves as a legitimate military) depends on where you are and the political climate. That can become a recurring threat, as in Israel.

For all the flaws of the U.S., we have one of the most ethnically inclusive societies in the world. We're far from perfect, but we don't have the specific class of injustices, at a high enough level, to produce the simmering grudges that cause such a thing to happen. Most of our terrorists are lone nutcases.

Relatedly, Americans and Northern Europeans tend to be culturally individualistic, so the people who would be domestic terrorists tend toward spree violence with either no political mission, or one that is not charismatic enough to post a threat of recurrence. For example, as horrible as Breivik's attack in Oslo was, it didn't motivate a wave of similar attacks. He had a political agenda, but not a coherent one that many people would follow.

TL;DR: Terrorism has many forms, and some pose high rates of recurrence, but foreign terrorism tends to occur in one-off attacks and the U.S. does not presently have the conditions (or, at least, does not seem to have them) that would cause recurring domestic terrorism.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#138

Post by MichaelApproved »

epo wrote: post #128
MichaelApproved wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the smartness of the leaders is averaged down by the low quality of the foot soldiers who actually decide to die for the cause." Deciding to die for a cause does not make you stupid. The 9/11 attackers were intelligent enough to pilot a commercial aircraft. There are also many patriots who love their country and have been willing to die for it. WW II Japanese fighter pilots are a classic example. I wouldn't call tho…

It doesn't make you stupid but it is easier to find and convince stupid people to go out and die than it is to find and convince smart people to do the same thing, many suicide bombers are found to be mentally retarded and/or highly suggestible. The Japanese example is a, ahem, yellow herring, that was during wartime when both sides had formally declared war. Wartime patriotism (and of course the necessity to obey mi…

Do you think suicide bombers think they are living in a time of peace? To them, it's war, formally declared or not.

Regarding the Japanese: I understand that it was a volunteer force. Where was the threat of being shot?

From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze#Recruitment

It was claimed by the Japanese forces at the time that there were many volunteers for the suicidal forces. Captain Motoharu Okamura commented that "there were so many volunteers for suicide missions that he referred to them as a swarm of bees," explaining: "Bees die after they have stung."[32] Okamura is credited with being the first to propose the kamikaze attacks. He had expressed his desire to lead a volunteer group of suicide attacks some four months before Admiral Takijiro Ohnishi, commander of the Japanese naval air forces in the Philippines, presented the idea to his staff. While Vice Admiral Shigeru Fukudome, commander of the second air fleet, was inspecting the 341st Air Group, Captain Okamura took the chance to express his ideas on crash-dive tactics. “In our present situation I firmly believe that the only way to swing the war in our favor is to resort to crash-dive attacks with our planes. There is no other way. There will be more than enough volunteers for this chance to save our country, and I would like to command such an operation. Provide me with 300 planes and I will turn the tide of war.”[33] When the volunteers arrived for duty in the corps there were twice as many persons than there were aircraft. "After the war, some commanders would express regret for allowing superfluous crews to accompany sorties, sometimes squeezing themselves aboard bombers and fighters so as to encourage the suicide pilots and, it seems, join in the exultation of sinking a large enemy vessel." Many of the kamikaze pilots believed their death would pay the debt they owed and show the love they had for their families, friends, and emperor. "So eager were many minimally trained pilots to take part in suicide missions that when their sorties were delayed or aborted, the pilots became deeply despondent. Many of those who were selected for a bodycrashing mission were described as being extraordinarily blissful immediately before their final sortie."[34]

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#139

Post by mikestew »

I ran the prestigious marathon for the first time yesterday. I had a good race, set a new best time for recent years, and had a great experience. The only thing I would have been able to do yesterday was give blood, and that apparently wasn't needed. So there's nothing I can do, and fretting and worrying isn't going to change anything. Walking around scared isn't going to prevent anything. I sympathize with those affected, from those who lost friends and family to the thousands who were not allowed to finish the race. What I won't do is make the bombing the primary memory of the race. Sorry, bombers, you're not taking that away. I'll allow it to stand as a seperate, tragic event in my mind and deal with it from there.

Today my wife and I will go walk the Freedom Trail just as we planned. Maybe we won't get into some (or any) of the monuments, but we're doing it regardless. I mean, what else are we supposed to do, huddle in our hotel room until our flight tomorrow? The breakfast place a block south of the closed off crime scene is open, so we're off to go get some food now.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#140

Post by polshaw »

twoodfin wrote: post #136
rurounijones wrote: post #5

Glad this got posted quickly. I can already see the glee in intelligence / law enforcement agencys' eyes as they think how they can use this latest incident as reasoning for more over-arching powers. For a long time Londoners had to put up with IRA bombs but "Kept calm and carried on" (to use the phrase). I hope the US can follow suit. [EDIT] Changed "secret service" to "intelligence / law enforcement agencies" to av…

This is a non-sequitur. Just because people in London didn't panic (and neither have I seen much that could aptly be described as "panic" in the U.S.), it doesn't follow that the British authorities didn't acquire more security and policing powers to deal with the IRA.

(FWIW) The UK govt seized much more power in the years following 9/11 than related to the IRA period.
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