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The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

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Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#71

Post by ScottBurson »

rayiner wrote: post #47
jlgreco wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think that could bring "The Fall of New Rome"? An attack a hundred times more deadly (which would be something like 3% of NYC's population dead, if my mental math does not betray me, or something a little less than 10x The Blitz.) than 9/11 would be a tragedy with only a few parallels in history. It would be an astronomically staggering blow to our economy. Hell, the mangled remains of the economy after su…

No red dawn fantasies, just realpolitik ones. I would consider it a destruction of our society if our economy was not "recognizable as an economy at all." Indeed, the current recession only wiped out about $600 billion of GDP at the worst, and look at how much suffering it caused. I'm willing to vote for the US to send quite a few more drones to Pakistan to avert a possible 10x 9/11 event, even if we could technicall…

What if the drones are more likely to cause a 10x 9/11 event, by helping al Qaeda's recruiting efforts?

I don't know that that's a likely outcome, but I think it's possible. In any case, I think this idea that we can pre-emptively kill everyone who might possibly attack us at some point in the future is both dangerous and evil.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#72

Post by markdown »

rdouble wrote: post #68
markdown wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What keeps the US relatively free of terrorism is the massive ocean that's between the terrorists and their target. What keeps most countries relatively free from terrorism is that they aren't occupying other peoples land or bombing their women and children all the way to hell. Ever wonder why extremists haven't bombed the Cook Islands or Peru?

Peru has had tens of thousands of civilians killed in conflict with the Shining Path.

TIL. However, a cursory skimming of the Wikipedia page seems to indicate that it's an internal conflict.

Not really relevant to this discussion.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#73

Post by anigbrowl »

afhof wrote: post #19

Its too bad that most people don't have a basic appreciation of statistics or probability. Its too bad Schneier only spends a tiny paragraph on it: "Even though this will be in the news for weeks, we should recognize this for what it is: a rare event". The chance that a person will die from a bombing, or be shot, or their plane crash, or a hurricane kill them is so small that there is almost NO reason to be afraid of…

most people have a better grasp of probability than you suggest. What they're scared of is not so much the remote possibility of being a bombing victim, but the complete lack of control they would have in such a situation. there's a much higher chance of being in a car accident than in a bombing, but you can mitigate your risk of a car accidnet by paying attention to your own and others' driving, and in most cases you'd have the opportunity to take some evasive action. Likewise you can mitigate your risk of getting mugged by not going into dangerous neighborhoods or suchlike. And so on.

If you're the victim of a bombing, on the other hand, you probably won't have any warning or any time to do anything about it. By the time you figure out what's happened, you're already maimed/ dying/ dead, or one of your loved ones is, or whatever. Remote though the risk is, the randomness and immediacy of it are a lot scarier. I've been in close proximity to a car bomb; it's shocking because it's a lot bigger than you are, and whether you are a victim or not has absolutely nothing to do with your skills or reaction time, it's purely a matter of luck.

It's like getting killed by a falling tree or a sinkhole opening up under you or something. The risk of that actually happening is tiny, but what's scary is how helpless you would be if it did. Unlike car accidents or confrontations with wild animals or people, you probably won't get the opportunity to think/talk/fight your way out of danger in the former situation.If you think about movies, TV etc., people are always getting in jeopardy but worming their way out of it somehow or another. We find it much more shocking when we see someone get killed without having any time to react to the danger they're in.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#74

Post by ranvir »

MBlume wrote: post #48
greenyoda wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw no shortage of resolve in NYC after 9/11. Just as untog said of London, we all went to work the next day and carried on with our lives.

There was an excellent article by a New Yorker a while back contrasting the response within NYC with that of the rest of the country.

Would love to read that article if you have a link.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#75

Post by eqyiel »

AVTizzle wrote: post #17
carbocation wrote: post #3

I think for HN it's worth noting, perhaps in the title, that this article is written by Bruce Schneier.

Because I needed to look it up, too: "Bruce Schneier an American cryptographer, computer security specialist, and writer. He is the author of several books on general security topics, computer security and cryptography." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Schneier

http://www.schneierfacts.com/

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#76

Post by rayiner »

ScottBurson wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No red dawn fantasies, just realpolitik ones. I would consider it a destruction of our society if our economy was not "recognizable as an economy at all." Indeed, the current recession only wiped out about $600 billion of GDP at the worst, and look at how much suffering it caused. I'm willing to vote for the US to send quite a few more drones to Pakistan to avert a possible 10x 9/11 event, even if we could technicall…

What if the drones are more likely to cause a 10x 9/11 event, by helping al Qaeda's recruiting efforts? I don't know that that's a likely outcome, but I think it's possible. In any case, I think this idea that we can pre-emptively kill everyone who might possibly attack us at some point in the future is both dangerous and evil.

I object to the characterization that we're killing random people with drones. We are killing people whose stated goal is to attack us. There is nothing evil about that. Use of force to defend ones self, whether preemptive or reactive, is the closest thing to a "natural right" that exists in this world.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#77

Post by anigbrowl »

jlgreco wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With modern technology, you don't need to sack New York to cause tremendous damage. People downplay the magnitude of 9/11, but as I noted somewhere else today, it involved more deaths than Pearl Harbor, and economic damage of almost $100 billion (without accounting for the economic impact on the stock market). Is a terrorist attack ten times stronger inconceivable? An attack on a nuclear power plant could cost into t…

You really think that could bring "The Fall of New Rome"? An attack a hundred times more deadly (which would be something like 3% of NYC's population dead, if my mental math does not betray me, or something a little less than 10x The Blitz.) than 9/11 would be a tragedy with only a few parallels in history. It would be an astronomically staggering blow to our economy. Hell, the mangled remains of the economy after su…

Hell, the mangled remains of the economy after such an attack probably would not even be recognizable as an economy at all... But bring down our society?

Starvation or hopelessness tends to erode idealism pretty quickly. You don't need any kind of ridiculous Red Dawn fantasy to appreciate the possibility of critical injury; nor would the fall of an empire be an overnight thing. It's relatively easy to identify strategic weak points with the potential to tip a country into a tailspin.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#78

Post by sneak »

AVTizzle wrote: post #17
carbocation wrote: post #3

I think for HN it's worth noting, perhaps in the title, that this article is written by Bruce Schneier.

Because I needed to look it up, too: "Bruce Schneier an American cryptographer, computer security specialist, and writer. He is the author of several books on general security topics, computer security and cryptography." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Schneier

I bet you can't triforce, either.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#79

Post by cup »

hiddenfeatures wrote: post #18

As Bill Maher so eloquently put it: "Its horrible, but this time, let's not overreact, wallow, erect monuments to terrorism; let's handle it Israeli-Munich style" Source: https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/323951293506924544

By assassinating (and abusing due process) those responsible rather than adressing the issues which continue to allow this circle of violence and retaliatory action to continue ad nauseum.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#80

Post by sheri »

untog wrote: post #8

It was a great moment of national pride for me (which are rare in the UK) in the wake of the 7/7/2005 bombings. People were back on the Tube and buses the next day, refusing to allow their lives to be disrupted further. I've always taken solace from those people- I hope that the people of Boston can be equally inspiring.

Let me offer a different opinion. There was a series of bomb blasts in Mumbai in 1993. Thirteen different explosions in the span of a few hours across the city's landmarks. 250 people died. One of the blasts was in the Bombay stock exchange. This was on a Friday, and the stock exchange opened for business on Monday. This was a huge PR win for Mumbai, as the media talked about the resilience of the residents and the manner in which they moved on and didn't let it impact their lives.

It's now 20 years and several terrorist attacks and bomb-blasts have gone by. Mumbai still carries on, but there is no pride in doing that anymore. Everyone just wants it to stop. It's been easy for the government to quickly clean up and talk about how terrorism doesn't impact us. The Mumbai residents keep calm, but no one wants to move on like this.

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