The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment • Hacker News Board

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#41

Post by marknutter » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:24 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #35

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #28

"It's time for the government to start hiring the long-term unemployed." What the fuck? If you measure something you do not like, the immediate response should not be to grab a hammer and try to kill it. It probably exists for a reason. Understand the reason. Then take action. It may be that there is nothing you can do -- directly. Only a small few percentage points of the problems in the world go away through direct…

Eh, there is something to what he's saying. The idea that the labor market behaves rationally is a childish fantasy. Employers are not rational. They do all sorts of irrational things, and discriminating against the long-term unemployed (and also women returning to the work force from motherhood) is one of those irrational things. It's almost a dating mentality. They jump to the conclusion: "well if nobody else wants…

Well if they act irrationally they will be sufficiently punished by the market (no childish fantasy required). There aren't enough jobs? Then create more jobs. Starting a company, at my last check, is incredibly simple to do. Of course, turning a profit is hard, which is why people turn to the government to provide them with work rather than take the risk of starting a company. The government doesn't need to turn a profit, it collects taxes. Therefore it's a very attractive alternative to the cold, hard realities of the market. Of course, there's only so much tax money to go around..

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#42

Post by ryanklee » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #3

michaelochurch wrote: post #2

The Corporate System is actually collapsing. That doesn't mean that corporations themselves are going to go out (that won't happen for another 100+ years) but they're no longer an efficient way of turning human efforts into salable work. The value of managed human work is going to zero (anything that a manager can tell a person to do, a person can program a machine to do) and independent creative work's value is goin…

The share of Americans working for enterprises larger than 500 employees is rising, not falling. I think this analysis is more wishful than factual. It'll get upvoted because of course tuition and health care are satanically expensive.

It'd be interesting to note whether the rise is accelerating or decelerating, whether it's growing in sufficient proportion to the number of Americans entering the workforce, etc.

Just because the share is rising doesn't mean those enterprises aren't becoming less viable or accommodating.

I'm not saying they are or aren't, only that that data is pertinent.

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#43

Post by tptacek » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

netfire wrote: post #34

tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startuplandia myopia is myopic. Even for software developers, if you apply for a bunch of BigCo jobs, you're going to find that a long stretch without formal employment is an obstacle. The "I've been freelancing for the past year" trick probably does not work as well for med techs or paralegals.

Probably not. Something like "I've been volunteering down at the hospital" would be much better in those professions. Regardless of your profession, surely you can find something productive to do for 6 months, even if its part-time or without pay. Taking that sort of initiative will probably also get you the connections and referrals you need to get a job. Doing nothing but submitting applications for months on end i…

I agree that networking, volunteering, and pursuing unconventional short-term employment opportunities in your field is likely to result in you outperforming people who rely on resume blitzes to find jobs.

I do not agree that any of those things will help you get past a resume screener.

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#44

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #3

michaelochurch wrote: post #2

The Corporate System is actually collapsing. That doesn't mean that corporations themselves are going to go out (that won't happen for another 100+ years) but they're no longer an efficient way of turning human efforts into salable work. The value of managed human work is going to zero (anything that a manager can tell a person to do, a person can program a machine to do) and independent creative work's value is goin…

The share of Americans working for enterprises larger than 500 employees is rising, not falling. I think this analysis is more wishful than factual. It'll get upvoted because of course tuition and health care are satanically expensive.

[deleted]

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#45

Post by tptacek » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:26 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #32

tptacek wrote: post #9

Two things. First, I wouldn't want to naysay the idea that unemployment is a vicious cycle, because it intuitively is. But: this analysis is based on resume callbacks. Something that I think is as true as the "damaged goods" stigma is that most Americans do not know how to market themselves during job searches. If your only access to the job market is through a mechanism that is designed to extract basic facts from a…

It's probably easier to justify a 6 month gap with "I decided to have a kid" than "I was unemployed because nobody wanted me".

I think you'll find, if you talk to a lot of women who have looked for jobs after taking 6+ months off to deal with having a kid, that this is not true.

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#46

Post by danielweber » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:26 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #28

"It's time for the government to start hiring the long-term unemployed." What the fuck? If you measure something you do not like, the immediate response should not be to grab a hammer and try to kill it. It probably exists for a reason. Understand the reason. Then take action. It may be that there is nothing you can do -- directly. Only a small few percentage points of the problems in the world go away through direct…

Honestly, some real skills do disappear with long-term unemployment, like getting up on time every day. Even working a made-up job is probably better.

But real job skills do disappear, too. If one person has been working with machine tools 40 hours a week while the other hasn't used machine tools for six months, hiring the first is the rational thing to do.

Personally, as a software engineer, I've enjoyed my bouts of unemployment, because I've had the chance to deep dive into new things I never had the chance while working full time, and I've come out of them more employable. (Although I'm in the job hunt now while still employed, and recruiters and employers seem to be giant flakes, maybe because I'm not calling them twice a day, or maybe because they just suck.) But this isn't the norm.

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#47

Post by akincisor » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:26 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #25

bryanlarsen wrote: post #12

I've been on both sides of this divide. I've interviewed people who have been unemployed for more than 6 months, and I've been without formal employment for longer than 6 months. If all you've done is watch TV and send out resumes, nobody's going to hire you. You have to be able to say that you've done something. The easy answer is to go back to school. That costs money -- hopefully there's a government program you c…

>>The other good answer is "I worked on X", where X could have been pretty much anything: a failed business, an open source project, volunteer work, or just making stuff to sell on Etsy. I didn't even care if it was remotely related to the position. I just wanted to see some initiative and passion. There's nothing wrong with a forced sabbatical as long as you do something with it. Ideally, yes. In reality, it's easie…

If you've been looking for work full time for 6 months and not a single employer has wanted to hire you, being unemployed for 6 months is the least of your problems.

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#48

Post by benaston » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #33

tbrownaw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Corporate System is the current economic totalitarianism in which it's pretty much impossible to stay afloat without corporate blessing. This has never been the case. Large corporations do not employ the majority of people.

Yes, they do. They're not even just the largest employer bracket; they literally employ a majority of the employed in America.

Citation?

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#49

Post by tptacek » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #18

tptacek wrote: post #9

Two things. First, I wouldn't want to naysay the idea that unemployment is a vicious cycle, because it intuitively is. But: this analysis is based on resume callbacks. Something that I think is as true as the "damaged goods" stigma is that most Americans do not know how to market themselves during job searches. If your only access to the job market is through a mechanism that is designed to extract basic facts from a…

> I wonder which 50% of the population I might ask to find out more about this. I assume you are looking to ask the 50% of the population with lower unemployment, shorter median unemployment duration, and lower % long-term unemployed: http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/reports/femalelaborforce/

Women are more likely to work in sectors not as hard-hit by the recession. They don't tend to work construction. They do tend to work in the public sector sharply more often than men. You have to take those statistics in context.

Re: The Terrifying Reality of Long-Term Unemployment

#50

Post by marknutter » Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #25

bryanlarsen wrote: post #12

I've been on both sides of this divide. I've interviewed people who have been unemployed for more than 6 months, and I've been without formal employment for longer than 6 months. If all you've done is watch TV and send out resumes, nobody's going to hire you. You have to be able to say that you've done something. The easy answer is to go back to school. That costs money -- hopefully there's a government program you c…

>>The other good answer is "I worked on X", where X could have been pretty much anything: a failed business, an open source project, volunteer work, or just making stuff to sell on Etsy. I didn't even care if it was remotely related to the position. I just wanted to see some initiative and passion. There's nothing wrong with a forced sabbatical as long as you do something with it. Ideally, yes. In reality, it's easie…

Well, you not saving money is nobody's fault but your own. And if you can't pay your bills, you can either take advantage of any of the many safety nets provided by the government, or you can use any of the natural safety nets that are available to everybody but the most antisocial people; friends and family. Jobs are not a right, they are a privilege.