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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

311–320 of 539 posts

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#311
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. All countries claim to be the best.

Really? I've never once, despite living in the EU for my entire life (in various countries), heard anyone claim the country they live is anything like "the land of the free".

Leonard Cohen (a Canadian) described the US as the "cradle of the best and of the worst..." in the song "Democracy".

In fact that song I've thought was a good snapshot of where we (the US) are right now.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#312
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution is supposed to protect the rights of Americans from the tyranny of "the people." Alas.

I don't buy that. It seems that the notion of rights endowed by the creator should apply broadly to all humans whenever possible.

That's in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution. The former is high prose. The latter is a legal document. As a legal document, it cannot purport to give rights to people outside of its jurisdiction.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#313
post #219
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution is supposed to protect the rights of Americans from the tyranny of "the people." Alas.

this is false, FYI. Please reread the constitution. Sometimes it refers to citizens, sometimes it refers to people. The Bill of Rights applies to everyone. The fundamental civil liberties protections of the Bill of Rights and Constitution apply to all “persons,” not just citizens. For example, every person in the United States has the right to due process and equal protection; to criminal proceedings that afford a ri…

The Bill of Rights only applies to "people" within the jurisdiction of the American government. The Constitution is not a document that has extraterritorial force of international extent.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#314
post #2

The defenders of Gitmo in this era will be remembered by our descendants with the same shame and disgust we feel when remembering the slave holders and segregationists of the previous eras.

People barely even register Japanese internment, and those were actual Americans.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The teleprompter thing started to die once the entire field of Republican candidates was winnowed down to the single non-crazy one who was perfectly happy to use a teleprompter.

I thought they all used teleprompters. Who doesn't?

Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, Hermann Cain. Rick Santorum wanted to ban them. Etc.

All with predictable results. This isn't to say they never used teleprompters in their life; just that when they were running for the nomination, it was a useful cudgel to bash Obama and implicitly Mitt. That's why they were known as pretty gaffe-prone candidates.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#316
post #2

The defenders of Gitmo in this era will be remembered by our descendants with the same shame and disgust we feel when remembering the slave holders and segregationists of the previous eras.

I hope that the defenders of the legal theories that allow people to be held without trial for many years get their fair share of the blame. Gitmo itself is bad, but the legal theories that let almost anyone be held there without due process are worse. I understand that it looks bad if people released from custody in Gitmo return to action in 'violent non-state actor' groups. But is looking bad in the media worth hum…

What do you mean "almost everyone?" The only people in Guantanamo are foreigners. The Supreme Court struck down the other "theories" in a series of cases starting with Hamdi v. Rumsfeld: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closing it would mean having the prisoners moved elsewhere, but not a change to how they are being dealt with. That's the real issue; the location isn't what matters.

He could also order due process to start tomorrow. Maybe there are a few issues with sending people back to their countries, but certainly not in all cases.

He wanted them tried in E.D. Va. Virginia had a shitfit, then every other state said: "no fucking way you're trying those terrorists in our state."

No U.S. jurisdiction wants to play host to these people to give them a trial.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#318
post #60

So much for the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The declaration of independence is a document with zero legal force. It's a bunch of nice sounding words to justify our attempt to separate from the British, nothing more.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#319

> When I was at home in Yemen, in 2000, a childhood friend told me that in Afghanistan I could do better than the $50 a month I earned in a factory, and support my family. I’d never really traveled, and knew nothing about Afghanistan, but I gave it a try. Sorry but this account is troubling. He went to Afghanistan during the Taliban extremely insane cruel anti-woman Islamist totalitarian regime and expected a better…

The world is so hard in many places that people actually flee to Yemen.

http://www.unhcr.org/50f5377e11.html

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#320

Gitmo was the first thing that clued me that I had made a mistake voting for Obama's promises (not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead!). It was such a complete reversal that I immediately knew his promises were completely worthless. I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have. The double standard of what human rights mean if you are a US citizen an…

>>>>>>>>I appreciate that there may be anger outs people in Gitmo, but they have every right to a trial I have.

It's really not that easy considering most people say these people should be covered under the Geneva Convention and given a military tribunal to determine their guilt. Unfortunately, the convention was really adopted for conventional warfare, not the sort of loosely organized terrorists we're currently fighting.

Also keep in mind a large percentage of these people who claim to be innocent have returned to the battlefield after being released from Gitmo:

"A declassified document made public Tuesday showed that up to 25% of all former detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, subsequently engaged in terrorism or insurgency"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/07/guantanamo.detainees/index....

And here's a list of other Gitmo prisoners who have been released and involved in terrorist attacks:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/327926/gitmo-detainees-...

>>>>>>As a country, in many ways we deserve the disdain directed at us.

No, not really. Considering when something bad happens anywhere in the world, nobody calls Canada, nobody calls Turkey, nobody calls Sweden. They call us to fix it. They call us to send billions in aid. They call us to take care of their crazy saber rattling neighbors. You think we deserve the disdain, but can you imagine the world without the billions in aid, without all the military aid we give other countries?

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