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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#211

Post by inopinatus »

jimrandomh wrote: post #32
ashray wrote: post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

> You know what these people call themselves? Middle class. They refuse to acknowledge that they are wealthy. No, they've got it right. The distinction between middle class and lower class is entirely about wealth, but the distinction between middle class and upper class is not. Wealth is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for being upper class; the distinguishing features are flexibility and power, not money.…

In the UK we would call them the Upper Middle Class instead to clarify that they are merely rich merchants, not actual aristocracy. It's a matter of blood, don'tchaknow.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#212

Post by vacri »

frankzinger wrote: post #209
vacri wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of the problem of being poor is even being aware that you are able to change your status. It's intellectually lazy to pull the 'just work hard' line, when most of what gets you wealth is what you know , not how hard you work. Not to mention that in the end, even if everyone did 'just work hard', there isn't enough wealth to go around. The civilised thing is at least to give people basic services and let themselv…

I never said "just working hard" will solve the poor's problems. All I said was that it's better to do all you can than to expect help to come from the government or charity because that is unrealistic in countries with such a large poor population and would most likely only get you a lifetime of false hope. And I am not saying that most poor people expect handouts. If anything I would guess that most of them are har…

No, but your parent did. My point is that merely knowing that you can work to improve your position, build on it, is novel information in and of itself for a great many people, not to mention how to do that.

My position is less about handouts, and more about the assumption that poor people know how to get out of poverty and all that's missing is the elbow grease. Yes, relying on the government for handouts isn't going to work, and you also want to be careful of welfare dependence. But education is a significant wealth-enabler, and merely knowing how to deal with various things can give people a leg up. Kamaal's point is about giving a giant shrug and saying "eh, what can you do?". It reflects the current realities of the situation, but the lazy part is not bothering to think of better ways forward.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#213

Post by vacri »

dopkew wrote: post #210
vacri wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of the problem of being poor is even being aware that you are able to change your status. It's intellectually lazy to pull the 'just work hard' line, when most of what gets you wealth is what you know , not how hard you work. Not to mention that in the end, even if everyone did 'just work hard', there isn't enough wealth to go around. The civilised thing is at least to give people basic services and let themselv…

> there isn't enough wealth to go around. Though one often reads that acquiring/making wealth isn't a zero sum game.

It definitely isn't a zero-sum game - more basic medical skills in a demographic will improve quality of life, for example, and that's just (almost) free knowledge - but it still doesn't mean there's enough wealth to give everyone a comfortable life.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#214

Post by chii »

jvm wrote: post #39
galactus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it sounds a lot like my own country, Colombia, particularly the part about priviledged people considering themselves middle class.

It sounds like my own country too, the United States. :-)

actually, you'd be surprised - i think those people who don't consider themselves upper-class are probably right in their judgement. the wealth distribution in america is very skewed : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ

unless you are with in the top 1%, i wouldn't say you are upper class.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#215

Post by chii »

markdown wrote: post #122
jiggy2011 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK a lot of door to door collecting for charities is done by private companies who take a significant chunk of the donation for themselves. Perhaps richer people are more likely to know this and be sceptical of door to door collections. They may also value their time more and not like being "hassled". This does not necessarily mean that they do not provide charity donations. They may just do it in a smarter wa…

> This does not necessarily mean that they do not provide charity donations. They may just do it in a smarter way, for example attending charity dinners/events where they get to rub shoulders with other affluent people. Smarter = self-serving?

people don't donate (at least, not those huge donors who throw lavish dinner parties) out of the kindness of their own hearts. They do so to appear charitable, and to show off their status. THis is why you don't often see private, undisclosed and anonymous donations in large amounts.

When a rich elite donates money, they are doing it to sing praises for themselves - whether they admit it consciously or not.

The end result is still good - i don't care whether their charitible activities are self-serving, provided that it achieves the results of helping those who needed the charity.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#216

Post by chii »

huhtenberg wrote: post #78
davidroberts wrote: post #74

This does not just apply in India. A long time ago, I had a job soliciting donations door to door in the US. We did all we could to avoid the rich neighborhoods and actively sought out the poor minority neighborhoods. People in those neighborhoods with only two dollars would give one to help others. In the rich neighborhoods, they would call the police the moment they saw you. If I ever had to have a heart attack in…

> Even in family relations this applies. And you are saying this based on what? Common sense?

hollywood dramas...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#217

Post by chii »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #139
Confusion wrote: post #76

Nietzsche and The Last Psychiatrist[1] would have a field day with this. The article tells a story we love to believe: we may be poorer than the people the article talks about, but we are nicer, more empathic, better people. We love to believe it, because it makes us feel good about ourselves and provides a sense of justice: nobody has it all and if someone has more of one thing, he will have less of something else.…

I definitely agree with you that the current socioeconomic system is suboptimal, and rife with perverse incentives and loopholes. It can be fixed though.

i don't believe the assertion that the "system" can be fixed - in a very complex system, there necessarity exists optimal strategies for "advancing" (in this context, it means getting more money faster). I compare it to making sure a complex computer system is secure from attack - the surface area is just so large, that you can't plug every single possible hole, you can't plan for every single eventuality.

To fix socioeconomic problems means to redivide the pie more evenly, and there are just way too many vested interests in keeping things the way it is.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#218

Post by chii »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #141
wilfra wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be as bad as some countries where you can just pay the cops but the rich and well connected in America definitely play by a different set of rules, especially with regard to punishment. Example: a rich old woman in my hometown was drunk in the morning and ran over a guy riding a bicycle and killed him. She ended up getting probation. Not a day in jail. Put a poor minority behind the wheel of that car and t…

That's an entirely different problem set from what seems to be happening in India. What you're describing in the US is a system where perceptions and punishment of superficially similar behaviour vary based on your position with society, namely based on whether you activate the sympathies or antipathies of the mainstream establishment. I.E. that old lady is much less likely to be perceived as aggressive and anti-soci…

> ...lacks even the value system which would encourage the privileged to feel guilt and regret over their treatment of those beneath them.

i'd like to talk a bit about this "value system". While i'd like to believe that in a western society that the value system for me to not steal and murder is built in, i really doubt that's the case.

The value system is one which is enforced by laws - and actual enforcement, instead of lip service. I assault a person, i get to go to jail. Imagine if the enforcement isn't there - i'd steal my way thru life! Forget about the morals, when you can have the latest shit for free! This is the exact psyche of a software pirate - because it is unenforceable.

I would say that the value system is so poor or non-existent in india could be because they are unable to enforce their laws, or that those with money can get away from the punishment etc. Hence, the poor sees that and assumes that the laws are selectively applied, and that its OK if you get away with it.

I m sure things will improve (as things have improved in western society over the past several hundred years - you'd see similar behaviour in the middle/dark ages in europe). It just takes time, and takes wealth build up in such a way that those who are most desperate aren't anymore.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#219

Post by dalke »

mjn wrote: post #134
dalke wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've misread trhtrsh. 'Let people earn it in healthy ways, by their contributions, not their accumulations.' This view is that rich people should only be respected for their contributions "back to the society which has enriched them." Not for their ability to acquire and hold $100+ million. I believe also that the point about 'selling "personal advertising space" on the sides of libraries' is meant to inclu…

I agree it's tricky to get right. The art world is one example where some philanthropic spending is arguably for the public benefit, but other philanthropic spending has arguably fallen "the prey of a clique". I wasn't thinking in my comment upthread as systemically, though, in terms of whether philanthropy or, say, taxation, is a better way to tackle inequality. I actually lean a bit towards the latter myself, and a…

Your upstream thread reminded me of an essay I read a few months back. It concerned Downton Abbey, which is a show I've not seen so anything I say here is second- or third-hand.

In the British style of the 1800s, the system was set up so the lord of the manor (or whatever the title might have been) was the caretaker of the wealth and the people. For example, he would build housing for the people of the manor, provide money to the church, support the sick and elderly, and so on. In return, the people would work for him.

This makes the system dependent on one person. If that person should invest heavily in a sugar cane plantation in the Caribbean, which goes south, then that may mean economic hardship for the entire area.

It's hard for me to say that this model is either philanthropy or taxation. It's remnants of feudalism. That makes me think that the issue actually one of centralized vs. decentralized power, or of resilience vs. fragility. (After all, towns and cities also go bankrupt.)

Wealth is a force multiplier, which can be used for good and for bad. There are ways to attenuate its use for bad: equalize wealth (eg, through progressive taxes or increased philanthropy), strengthen laws (so those with less wealth seek remedy in case of bad treatment), inculcate (eg, through the Carnegie Formula) an ethos towards "good" philanthropy, and so on.

Progressive taxation to me is the easiest to accomplish. It does require a transparent, responsive government, but then again, so do the others.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#220

Post by baali »

denzil_correa wrote: post #126

There may be a lot of misconceptions on the poor and class divide in India. I would like to answer some of them by posting some numbers and providing context. Who are the 'poor' in India? The poor in India, according to the Planning Commission, are people who live on 32 Indian Rupees/59cents per day. How many people are poor in India? The Planning Commission of India reports that there are 29.8% of the population who…

This link might be a good read related to income per day context and an attempt to manage in that much amount: http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/Harsh_Mander/barefoo...
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