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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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141–150 of 251 posts

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#141
post #66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every part of America I have ever been in would not tolerate that. It's illegal.

It may not be as bad as some countries where you can just pay the cops but the rich and well connected in America definitely play by a different set of rules, especially with regard to punishment. Example: a rich old woman in my hometown was drunk in the morning and ran over a guy riding a bicycle and killed him. She ended up getting probation. Not a day in jail. Put a poor minority behind the wheel of that car and t…

That's an entirely different problem set from what seems to be happening in India. What you're describing in the US is a system where perceptions and punishment of superficially similar behaviour vary based on your position with society, namely based on whether you activate the sympathies or antipathies of the mainstream establishment. I.E. that old lady is much less likely to be perceived as aggressive and anti-social in court than a young minority member. The system is not completely fair, and you can argue about the extent to which the system is unfair, but the system at least holds fairness as an ideal, and the mainstream establishment identifies with this ideal. Cops and judges may not perceive it as unfair if a similar crime when committed by an old rich lady is more likely to be viewed as a regrettable mistake (especially if she appears distraught and repentant in court) than when committed by a minority member.

In India it seems like fairness is not even part of the equation. It sounds like a seriously dog-eat-dog environment, where there are few if any checks on raw, ruthless antisocial behaviour. Society lacks even the value system which would encourage the privileged to feel guilt and regret over their treatment of those beneath them.

Basically it is the difference between a society where people are shocked and angered by unfairness and a society where people are desensitised or even perversely excited by unfairness.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are public streets in Atherton, that they want to treat as if it was their private property. If it was all private they can do what they like. The roads belong to the public - including the folks from RWC.

Define "public". Public to Atherton residents? Public to Californians? Public to Americans? If it's built and maintained from local Atherton taxes, they should get a say in who uses it.

I agree with you, RWC should disallow Atherton residents from driving on their streets -- possibly enforced through randomly pulling over cars (richer cars will probably yield better results) and ticketing anyone with an Atherton address.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#143
post #8

This happen to be a very Chinese and Indian thing. You don't see this in say countries like Sweden or Germany.

> This happen to be a very Chinese and Indian thing.

My father is li gang!*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gang_incident

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever one does in America, in a car, is not a crime, even if a dozen people die. http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/04/08/immune-from-prosecutio... As a bicyclist, I can tell you as a matter of personal experience that Americans do in fact run bicyclists off the road frequently. I have never heard of such things being prosecuted, even when the cyclists were seriously injured, or when their bike is ruined. Now, why do…

I appears you have not heard about the man sentenced to 10+ years in prison for hitting and injuring a bicyclist in Healdsburg, CA (about 70 miles north of San Francisco). The article also mentions two other ongoing prosecutions of drivers for hitting bicyclists in the same area. http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121130/ARTICLES/12113...

That was a hit-and-run. If you kill someone with a car, stay at the scene, and aren't obviously intoxicated, police officers will publicly exonerate you in front of local television reporters. This is not true for any other class of crime in America.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are public streets in Atherton, that they want to treat as if it was their private property. If it was all private they can do what they like. The roads belong to the public - including the folks from RWC.

Define "public". Public to Atherton residents? Public to Californians? Public to Americans? If it's built and maintained from local Atherton taxes, they should get a say in who uses it.

Sure, they have a say. That's why the Atherton home page has this text:

> The Town of Atherton desires, insofar as possible, to preserve its character as a scenic, rural, thickly-wooded, residential area, with abundant open space with streets designed primarily as scenic routes rather than for speed of travel.

Notice the "as possible?". Cities only exist because the states gave them a charter. Cities must work within state law. The relevant state law is the California Vehicle Code.

You requested: Define "public".

Public here means anyone. "Public to Atherton residents" is not public. Palo Alto has its own openspace area which is only open to Palo Alto residents but not to the public. "Public" even includes a visitor from another country who has never paid a penny in US taxes. Any other interpretation is incompatible with current legal use.

The CA VC says that local officials can close or divert traffic on a road, but only for certain circumstances. (Regulation of Highways, §21101 if you want to read it yourself.): Local authorities, for those highways under their jurisdiction, may adopt rules and regulations by ordinance or resolution on the following matters:

Reading the CA code, there are public roads and private roads. A private road may be open for public, in which case the CA Vehicle Code still applies. If a private road is truly a private road and outside of the CA Vehicle Code, then the city of Atherton will need to make a lot of work to prove that, and a lot more work to develop its own regulations for how to manage those roads. So it's safe to assume that all of the streets under discussion are "public streets" covered under the CA Vehicle Code.

The VC takes a dim view of restricting access to streets. There's only a few ways for local officials to designate something as "not a through street." The most likely is if "The street has an unsafe volume of traffic and a significant incidence of crime." and "The local authority makes a finding that closure of the street likely would result in a reduced rate of crime." That doesn't seem to be the case here.

By "dim view" I give as an example §21101.6.: Notwithstanding Section 21101, local authorities may not place gates or other selective devices on any street which deny or restrict the access of certain members of the public to the street, while permitting others unrestricted access to the street.

I think that helps show that "public" means "public to everyone", and not limited to certain members.

This "dim view" is even more so for arterial streets, which is now almost the only want to get through Atherton from Redwood City.

Earlier you wrote: "maybe they just don't want people using residential streets as highways?"

There can be a lot of things that they may not want. They may not want any streets at all. However, they have to work within the law. The law doesn't seem to allow a posting of "no through traffic."

If the traffic is dangerous because of excessive speed, then they can set up police to enforce the speed limits, or they can get the roads evaluated to see if the speed limit is too high. However, that does not appear to be the case here.

I think it's more useful to read what the law actually says than to try and guess what things might mean. For situations like this, the definitions have been worked out in far better details than I would ever have considered had I just stuck to debating about what "public" might mean.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#146

This does not just apply in India. A long time ago, I had a job soliciting donations door to door in the US. We did all we could to avoid the rich neighborhoods and actively sought out the poor minority neighborhoods. People in those neighborhoods with only two dollars would give one to help others. In the rich neighborhoods, they would call the police the moment they saw you. If I ever had to have a heart attack in…

What the hell kind of idiot would give money to some guy begging door-to-door? You might consider that the rich didn't get that way by being idiots.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#147
post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

> You know what these people call themselves? Middle class. They refuse to acknowledge that they are wealthy. No, they've got it right. The distinction between middle class and lower class is entirely about wealth, but the distinction between middle class and upper class is not. Wealth is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for being upper class; the distinguishing features are flexibility and power, not money.…

Is this an established theory? Out of curiosity, I'm interested in sources.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#148
post #82

Humans are apes. It happens right here in Silicon Valley too. Atherton has nice little yellow signs that say 'No Through Traffic'. Why? They don't want the poor people from Redwood City coming through. In fact, one Atherton gentleman went to a RWC City Council meeting complaining about it and asking RWC to put up signs on their side too. The folks at RWC apparently told him to go stuff himself, that those little yell…

Humans are not apes. Neither literally, nor figuratively. That's not only incorrect, but it's a vicious thing to say, and it has dangerous implications.

What on Earth are you talking about? There's nothing vicious or dangerous about that statement.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#149
post #25

I have seen this kind of behavior going on in India for so many years. There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars. I'm convinced that this stems from the religious caste system which has now become the monetary class system in these new times. I always wondered why don't the poor just revolt, they're treated so badly, almost like slaves…

> There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars.

This is just one part of the story that helped your narrative. It is always the fault of the person with the larger vehicle in India, from what I know about the society. If you are involved in an accident and survived, pray to God that you were in the smaller vehicle, otherwise the crowd might beat you death - if they feel like it [1,2,3 and countless others]. From my own anecdote, I was almost hit by a motorbike while being on a cycle, due to my own fault. Not even a scratch, but I had to help the other man not be bullied by the crowd to pay me money.

And pushing people into ditches has nothing to do with being rich, it has to do with being an asshole. Yes there is widespread casteism (religious or economic) but not every unlawful, unfair act has be attributed to the same evil.

[1] http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-09-28/surat...

[2] http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2008-09-06/nagpu...

[3] http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-02-28/rajko...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#150
post #16

There is an implied causality in this article. Being rich -> Lose empathy. I'd be curious to know if there indeed is causality in either direction (Less empathetic people get richer) or is it just correlation masquerading as causality.

There is a fundamental moral conflict in desiring to own more than the next person. That requires less guilt or empathy, no doubt about that. You can find elsewhere an study about how psycopaths are usually found in leading positions, like politicians (specially in 3rd world, where salaries are high) and CEOs, amongst others.

You're grossly simplifying things. A person may be driven to succeed and generate wealth for their family because they want to be able to send their children to the best schools possible, or they want to be able to access the best medical practitioners and technology if someone they cared about were to get sick. It may have absolutely nothing to do with owning "more than the next person."
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