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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#41
post #3

I'm not from India but my parents are from Sri Lanka and when I went back there I was surprised to find what seemed to be middle class families having maids and butlers (they call them servants). Maybe some rich people in India must feel like they have the right to do it because they grow up having those people cater to their every need

You may not know this but you are touching a very sensitive issue.

Which is better for the country: asking people to employ domestic workers, or have higher unemployment?

Let's take South Africa, which I know better than any place in Asia. There's high unemployment. The government encourages people to hire domestic workers. Checking now the rates are about US$ 1/hour. These are maids/domestics, gardeners, childminders, caretakers for the sick and elderly, and so on.

I grew up on the US, and from my family learned a strong moral principle that it's best to do everything yourself, rather than have 'people cater to my every need' at home. As an adult, I followed that same moral principle.

Then I bought a house. With a garden. A quite beautiful garden that I wanted to keep. I couldn't do it myself. More importantly, my rates as a software developer were more than 8x that of a gardener. I fought that moral training and realized that it's little different than regularly going to a mechanic to maintain my car.

The position of the South African government is similar. If you have the money, then why not use it to hire people to help around the house? Living in South Africa for a short time, I learned about some of the advantages of having someone who would do laundry, including ironing, sweeping, or mowing the lawn. None are tasks I enjoy.

As you (and the essayist) point out, that's fraught with difficulties. At what point does that turn into a sense of entitlement? How can abuses in the workplace (that is, the home) be monitored and reduced?

You can read some of the difficulties and different viewpoints at http://www.sacsis.org.za/site/article/473.1 .

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#42
Inter related things.Ferociousness here is due to frustration of too many people around.

Too many people means: Too much inequality,inability of governing people properly,lack of regulations and so on.....

India is 3 times more populated than USA but 1/3 in land size of USA!

Population does matter. Nothing about riches only in India. Put these conditions in any other country and you will see same behavior.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#43
post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

You know what these people call themselves ? Middle class.

You see the same thing here in the U.S., and to be honest, I think it's somewhat accurate. The vast majority of the United States is middle class, and there is a huge range of privilege within it. Some parts of the middle class are virtually inaccessible from other parts. The mistake is not in labeling those rich, privileged people "middle class," but rather in thinking that there is no such thing as middle class privilege. In fact, being born into the middle class is a privilege, and there is a vast range of privilege within the middle class. In the U.S. a middle class kid could have parents with high school diplomas or parents with PhDs, parents with no connections or parents with Ivy League connections, parents who have never been more than a few hundred miles from home or cosmopolitan globe-hopping parents, parents who force them to take out loans for college or parents who pay the entire cost of an Ivy League education with a break year plus professional school afterwards and apartments and cars the whole time. The label "middle class" just doesn't mean much these days.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#44
post #43
post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

You know what these people call themselves ? Middle class. You see the same thing here in the U.S., and to be honest, I think it's somewhat accurate. The vast majority of the United States is middle class, and there is a huge range of privilege within it. Some parts of the middle class are virtually inaccessible from other parts. The mistake is not in labeling those rich, privileged people "middle class," but rather…

Many SV millionaires still consider themselves to be "upper middle class" (rather than say, lower upper class), and while it may be a bit inaccurate in an absolute monetary sense, the sentiment may actually be somewhat justifiable considering their relatively lack of influence/status/connections that really drive the country (the "old money", for instance).

In that sense, even the SV millionaires are outsiders to the real power brokers, the real upper class, the real movers of the country.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#45
post #25

I have seen this kind of behavior going on in India for so many years. There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars. I'm convinced that this stems from the religious caste system which has now become the monetary class system in these new times. I always wondered why don't the poor just revolt, they're treated so badly, almost like slaves…

There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars.

That would be a serious crime in the USA. If you did that, and you got caught, you would be in very serious trouble. And, it would not matter how rich you were. That's assault, perhaps with intent to harm or kill and civilized society does not tolerate it.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#46

This is not elite entitlement. This is right wing entitlement. The recent death of Maggie reminded me of what she really changed - she made it ok to be selfish and disdainful of "undeserving" poor. India was a hybridised socialist country for a very long time - coming out of that will look at lot like Britain the in the eighties I suspect - and if you want to put bets on the next two term incumbent - they will look a…

Margret Thatcher is responsible for the entrenched class system... in India?

No, it's pretty clear that that wasn't the point being made.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#48
post #8

This happen to be a very Chinese and Indian thing. You don't see this in say countries like Sweden or Germany.

You mean you don't see these things in countries with strong social safety nets (i.e first world countries).

While the US is a first world country (disclaimer: US citizen/resident), we have nowhere near the social programs other more progressive first world countries have.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#49
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess it depends on your culture/background, but your description of upper class people who believe they are middle class sound like people I would call middle class - I'm English. So while you may be completely right in the context of India, your examples don't necessarily explain it well to an international audience.

Not even 0.005% of the Indian populace can afford the things I mentioned as examples. Maybe the problem is that we take our cues of what is considered upper class from international standards and therefore fail to acknowledge our own privileges in a local context ?

I think that being middle class is not about representing any kind of median level of wealth in a population (or other relative measure), but rather has something to do with the kind of resources and income you have access to relative to human needs in an absolute sense.

For example, if some, but not all (or even most), of your family members need to work in order to maintain a comfortable lifestyle (which includes healthy food, a home that is not crowded, access to decent education, and one to four vehicles) then you are middle class. If you have to work but don't have these things, then you are lower-income. If you can have these things without working at all in perpetuity, then you are well-off.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#50
post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

>These people struggle (or think that they do..) for so long in the rat race that they forget that they have risen above it and gone far beyond that.

If these are people who have "made" the money themselves in their own generation, I can see why/how they still view themselves as middle class. It's a mindset.

I have had the fortune of getting to know many SV millionaires who grew up in modesty/poverty, and still buy shorts from Target and pinch pennies madly. They have their mansions and their fancy cars, but they're still bound by the mindset of their lower/middle class background where they fought ferociously and squeezed themselves and their financial abilities to get to where they are today.

As long as that mindset persists, even very wealthy people won't consider themselves to be "upper class".

Give it one or two generations though. Their kids and grandkids will probably behave and believe that they're upper class.

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