Live data from Hacker News

Is it Time for Mutiny?

blogs.hbr.org

21–30 of 40 posts

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#21

I've seen more corporate mutiny attempts in a few years than most people do in their lives. If you want mutiny, you have to divide power against itself. Power wants to unite. It wants the competition to be between it and the outside because that's the unfair kind that it can always win. Creating competition within power forces them into fights they might actually lose. They don't like that. So it's hard. The problem…

I've seen a number of mutiny attempts - some were famously successful, some worked out exactly as you would guess a "mutiny" would when their leader discovered.

In one mutiny, during a pretty significant re-org/layoffs, part of our organization had been sold to another (perceived to be inferior) company - the majority of the organization (that hadn't been laid off) - was just happy to still have a job, but a select group of technical employees decided (under the direction of a strong ring leader) - that they would not go to the other company. The ringleader was able to get five or six key technical employees to mutiny with him, and that would have been sufficient to jeopardize ongoing operations. His demands were met, and they were able to stay with initial company. No retribution ever occurred, and they had several successful years as employees.

Another attempt at clear-cut mutiny that I've seen, was a technical leader who was not fond of his manager, reach out to a competing organization (In a clear cut Red/Blue scenario) in the company, and volunteered to "take all his employees over" to that organization. The manager, for whatever reason, forwarded the email to the technical leader's manager, and that technical leader was then terminated the next morning for "insubordination." - Over the next two to three months every single member of that team resigned their jobs in protest, causing disruption for the next several quarters at the company. Mutiny both failed, and caused great disruption to the company.

The OP article is pretty good - it captures pretty much all of the elements that make for mutiny, and the circumstances in which it can be successful, and how it takes place.

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#22
post #8

Let's say a "friend" of mine works for a company of about 100 people. There would be clear lines of demarcation between departments, management, and responsibility but that is not what ownership wants. Instead they run a flat system where the patriarch (of the family that owns the company): * bypasses all "managers" to assign tasks direct to the employee * never has a meeting asking for suggested fixes, just what he…

great comment. mutiny was viewed extremely differently in the age of discovery, even positively. seafarers were extremely clever about it and so were leaders. it is possible to depose authority in a setting like you describe but not via the current dominant view or what it means to depose authority. a mutiny, done very strategically, can be constructive. but it needs to flow from the culture of the organization in wh…

[deleted]

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#23
A ship (or fleet of ships) on a voyage of discovery goes thousands of miles away from any court or police presence or indeed from any prospective allies or enemies who even speak the same language as the people on the ship.

That single strategic factor makes stories of mutinies dramatically interesting, but it also leaves me puzzled (even after reading the article at hbr.org) as to why the author of the article at hbr.org expects his book or his article to shed much light on situations in which all parties have recourse at any time to a judical system with a strong centuries-old commitment to the preservation of the rights of property and its duly appointed "agents" (i.e., the managers of the corporation).

ADDED. Well, yeah, for a group of employees with a bad boss to go over the boss's head to try to get the boss removed has some resemblance to a mutiny on a ship, but why rely on this rather tenuous connection between mutinies on wooden ships and "modern employee mutinies"? Why not directly study cases when in this day and age employees tried to get their boss removed? Because reading about mutinies on wooden ships is more fun? Because it makes for drama that can be converted into page views?

ADDED. Another huge difference is that for an employee to leave the ship during the voyage means being stranded 1000s of miles from civilization, which is a much bigger deal than walking away from unvested options or the chance of a pension.

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#25
The key difference with corporate "mutinies" and mutinies at sea is that on a ship your mutiny needs to take control of the ship to succeed. Life without the safety of the ship poses significant existential threat. It is often better, and less risky for modern would-be mutineers to follow the example of the traitorous eight and just leave as a group and do their own thing.

Also, a mutiny gathered steam inboard a ship because poor management of ship and resources was life threatening. A lot of folks in a poorly managed company still live a comfortable lifestyle and take home a large paycheck (cough Yahoo! engineers pre-Mayer) so have little incentive to join a mutiny which might jeopardize that.

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#26

In my company there was recently a successful case of mutiny where an incompetent project manager was removed from a project and subsequently made to leave the company. Long story short, the guy was making stupid technical decisions (some of which were incredibly harmful to the project), he was unable to complete his tasks within a reasonable timespan, he was dictatorial and argumentative with other developers despit…

Reminds me of the Mutiny scene in Band of Brothers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSL4oLkLRUM

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#27

A ship (or fleet of ships) on a voyage of discovery goes thousands of miles away from any court or police presence or indeed from any prospective allies or enemies who even speak the same language as the people on the ship. That single strategic factor makes stories of mutinies dramatically interesting, but it also leaves me puzzled (even after reading the article at hbr.org) as to why the author of the article at hb…

Exactly! Complaining to the boss's boss is a very different process than slitting the captain's throat in the middle of the night and throwing him overboard. I'm not sure how one sheds any light on the other.

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#28

In my company there was recently a successful case of mutiny where an incompetent project manager was removed from a project and subsequently made to leave the company. Long story short, the guy was making stupid technical decisions (some of which were incredibly harmful to the project), he was unable to complete his tasks within a reasonable timespan, he was dictatorial and argumentative with other developers despit…

Reminds me of the Mutiny scene in Band of Brothers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSL4oLkLRUM

awesome connection - hadn't heard of that mutiny scene before

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#29

The key difference with corporate "mutinies" and mutinies at sea is that on a ship your mutiny needs to take control of the ship to succeed. Life without the safety of the ship poses significant existential threat. It is often better, and less risky for modern would-be mutineers to follow the example of the traitorous eight and just leave as a group and do their own thing. Also, a mutiny gathered steam inboard a ship…

actually in both settings you have an example of shared values being affronted. on a ship the values concern safety and food. in a firm the values concern socialization and esteem. in both settings, leaders undertake actions that violate shared values. so the mechanism that stimulates mutiny in both settings is identical. moreover, it is indeed possible for mutineers to take control (subtle control, over weeks or months) of a venture, department, or firm.

Re: Is it Time for Mutiny?

#30

A ship (or fleet of ships) on a voyage of discovery goes thousands of miles away from any court or police presence or indeed from any prospective allies or enemies who even speak the same language as the people on the ship. That single strategic factor makes stories of mutinies dramatically interesting, but it also leaves me puzzled (even after reading the article at hbr.org) as to why the author of the article at hb…

sounds like you need to read the book. history will teach you many lessons. In old seafaring ventures AND in modern firms leaders undertake actions that violate shared values. in the historic cases the values are more basic (safety, food) to the human condition than they are in firms today (socialization, esteem). Mutinies on historic age of discovery ventures were extremely sophisticated and subtle and the physical environment brought it all down to basic human social dynamics. why not look at firms today? try it. (a) firms are all different from one another and you can't compare cases - the ships were suitable similar. (b) can't get reliable data - people today will lie to you because they are biased, whereas on the ships the primary account journals are richer and more objective. finally, citing the judicial system strains credulity as there is so much members can do to depose leaders with it completely under the radar.
Post reply on HN