FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#11

Post by sangaya » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 1:21 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #7

njharman wrote: post #2

That wasn't a defense, it was an acknowledgment of incompetence. It looks like the FBI is due for a Judge delivered smack down like the SS got for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_Games,_Inc._v._Un...

Seems like there's a new branch of law or law enforcement that needs to be developed. People who have some expertise in IT need to advise law enforcement about raids like this.

One issue with this is that all of the FBI raids that go well and consist of competent decision making regardless of IT knowledge involvement will never make the news. No one wants to read that a raid went off without a hitch. Or that the field agents sent in to raid a data center were competent enough that no network other than the suspect's was interrupted. Those stories don't make the news.

* Admission of possible bias - I'm a member of the Chicago FBI InfraGard program that exists for information sharing between private industry and the government. I've met, talked to, and shaken hands with, many smart and knowledgeable people in the FBI working on computer crime cases.

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#12

Post by greatfog » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 1:39 AM UTC

[attitude=prudent]

I do not want my company's communications disrupted by an FBI raid on a service firm that turned out to be a criminal enterprise. I had best look for a service provider that has been _pre-investigated_ by the government. After all, I have a responsibility to my company's shareholders and customers.

[/attitude]

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#13

Post by patio11 » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 1:48 AM UTC

patrickg-zill wrote: post #3

How many companies are reading this and wondering if their next datacenter project should involve servers located outside US jurisdiction?

Given the relative incidence of FBI raids to datacenters you might as well pick your server location based on perceived threat of meteorite strikes.

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#14

Post by sho » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 1:48 AM UTC

sangaya wrote: post #11

stcredzero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like there's a new branch of law or law enforcement that needs to be developed. People who have some expertise in IT need to advise law enforcement about raids like this.

One issue with this is that all of the FBI raids that go well and consist of competent decision making regardless of IT knowledge involvement will never make the news. No one wants to read that a raid went off without a hitch. Or that the field agents sent in to raid a data center were competent enough that no network other than the suspect's was interrupted. Those stories don't make the news. * Admission of possible…

"Authorities also raided his home, where they seized eight iPods, some belonging to his three children, five XBoxes, a PlayStation3 system and a Wii gaming console, among other equipment. Agents also seized about $200,000 from the owner's business accounts, $1,000 from his teenage daughter's account and more than $10,000 in a personal bank account belonging to the elderly mother of his former comptroller."

I'm sure no-one doubts there are numerous smart, knowledgable people working for the FBI. Unfortunately, looking at the above, there are obviously plenty of the opposite as well, and they have just as much power as the first.

The FBI has a duty to ensure that its overwhelming powers are wielded only by those competent to do so, in the same way that it has a duty to ensure that anyone it issues with a firearm is sufficiently trained in its use.

There is no room for such wild discrepancies in competence when the agency in question has such power to ruin lives. They are entirely at fault here, and "but it mostly goes well!" is no excuse at all.

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#15

Post by jf » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 1:49 AM UTC

sangaya wrote: post #11

stcredzero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like there's a new branch of law or law enforcement that needs to be developed. People who have some expertise in IT need to advise law enforcement about raids like this.

One issue with this is that all of the FBI raids that go well and consist of competent decision making regardless of IT knowledge involvement will never make the news. No one wants to read that a raid went off without a hitch. Or that the field agents sent in to raid a data center were competent enough that no network other than the suspect's was interrupted. Those stories don't make the news. * Admission of possible…

Maybe you should drop some of your FBI contacts a note and explain how this story is all over the internet?

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#16

Post by wheels » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 2:38 AM UTC

SystemOut wrote: post #5

patrickg-zill wrote: post #3

How many companies are reading this and wondering if their next datacenter project should involve servers located outside US jurisdiction?

Do you seriously think that other countries have more respect for rule of law or knowledge of data centers than the FBI? It's not that I have any respect for the FBI when it comes to how they have handled this or other investigations but I have a hard time believing that this couldn't easily happen in any other country you might choose to house your servers in. What this case tells me if I'm running a business or in…

A coordinated raid of multiple sites inside of the US wouldn't be that hard. A coordinated raid spanning multiple countries would be hard enough that you'd have to suspected of Really, Really, Bad Things for it to come off.

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#17

Post by sangaya » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 2:56 AM UTC

sho wrote: post #14

sangaya wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One issue with this is that all of the FBI raids that go well and consist of competent decision making regardless of IT knowledge involvement will never make the news. No one wants to read that a raid went off without a hitch. Or that the field agents sent in to raid a data center were competent enough that no network other than the suspect's was interrupted. Those stories don't make the news. * Admission of possible…

"Authorities also raided his home, where they seized eight iPods, some belonging to his three children, five XBoxes, a PlayStation3 system and a Wii gaming console, among other equipment. Agents also seized about $200,000 from the owner's business accounts, $1,000 from his teenage daughter's account and more than $10,000 in a personal bank account belonging to the elderly mother of his former comptroller." I'm sure n…

"The FBI has a duty to ensure that its overwhelming powers are wielded only by those competent to do so, in the same way that it has a duty to ensure that anyone it issues with a firearm is sufficiently trained in its use. There is no room for such wild discrepancies in competence when the agency in question has such power to ruin lives."

Well said! You are absolutely correct.

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#18

Post by RobGR » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 2:58 AM UTC

These events remind me of Operation Sundevil and the raid on Steve Jackson Games, described in Bruce Sterling's book "The Hacker Crackdown".

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#19

Post by wmf » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 3:00 AM UTC

greatfog wrote: post #12

[attitude=prudent] I do not want my company's communications disrupted by an FBI raid on a service firm that turned out to be a criminal enterprise. I had best look for a service provider that has been _pre-investigated_ by the government. After all, I have a responsibility to my company's shareholders and customers. [/attitude]

Perhaps you could convince AT&T to host your servers right next to the Echelon equipment.

Re: FBI Defends Disruptive Raids on Texas Data Centers

#20

Post by stcredzero » Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 3:08 AM UTC

sangaya wrote: post #11

stcredzero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like there's a new branch of law or law enforcement that needs to be developed. People who have some expertise in IT need to advise law enforcement about raids like this.

One issue with this is that all of the FBI raids that go well and consist of competent decision making regardless of IT knowledge involvement will never make the news. No one wants to read that a raid went off without a hitch. Or that the field agents sent in to raid a data center were competent enough that no network other than the suspect's was interrupted. Those stories don't make the news. * Admission of possible…

I've known about InfraGard, and I've met InfraGard people from the Cincinnati area, but my understanding was that it focused on "how to get/guard against the bad guys." What I'm talking about is more along the lines of, "how to make sure you don't trample innocents."

If the police need to detain someone with special medical needs, I hope that they get medical advice on how to ensure no harm is done. If the police need to do a raid in a community where the majority culture is different and no one speaks English, I should hope that they get a hold of the specialized expertise to negotiate that gracefully. A raid at a datacenter used by parties other than the suspect is another situation requiring specialized knowledge.

So there are lots of FBI agents savvy enough to get advice. I think the problem involves the ones who don't know enough to know the full extent of their own ignorance.

Also, regulations are in order. If the authorities have the power to bring down someone's business on an "OOOPS," doesn't this leave a loophole begging to be exploited?