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The end of Philosophy

nytimes.com

11–20 of 39 posts

Re: The end of Philosophy

#11
post #8

I don't agree with his premise that people can't use reason to come to good moral principles, and then act on them. Figuring out morality his way--by emotion--would be abdicating your power to make positive change and leaving everything to random influences upon your life. A woman was mean to me as a kid? Well, I'll hate women. Everyone I know goes to church, and I have come to love Jesus? Well, that must be the righ…

On the other hand, you're an evolved being with innate biases. There are solid natural reasons that most people share similar moral intuitions (read: emotions). If these intuitions did not exist, there would be no axioms from which to deduce other moral actions. Brooks' premise is naturalistic, that man is more complex than an avatar of pure reason. I think he's right.

He just messes up and shows his ignorance/stupidity when he tries to say that "man is more complex then an avatar of pure reason" implies "the processes by which man was created are more than is understandable by pure reason". believe what you want but thats a shoddy piece of reasoning.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#12
To paraphrase the article:

Dear children, your silly worldview of objective rights and wrongs is outdated and wrong. Morality is purely subjective, a matter of taste. I provide no evidence or reasoning for my opinions but I do expect you to be challenged and wowed by their far-reaching consequences.

If morality is purely subjective, then issues such as as gay marriage become purely a matter of taste. One person has taste for self-determination and thinks that gays should marry and another thinks gay sex is gross and that it should be banned. They are both right and totally justified doing whatever they feel is aesthetically pleasing (ie murder) to accomplish their ends.

This is a problem to say the least.

Effectively this means that there is no such thing as right and wrong and what we are left with is shallow consensus (as opposed to a reasoned consensus) at best, and application of force at worst. Slavery becomes right, because I'm a sociopath with a gun.

Let's just say that I subjectively think that it is morally obligatory for people to accept an objective moral norm.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#13
post #3

The article talks as if the idea that moral judgements are based on feeling or perception rather than on reason is a recent one. As one (important) example, Hume explicitly advocated such a position in the 1700s. It also seems to confuse moral philosophy and moral psychology. The former can use reason and arguments to attempt to justify practical principles and actions (at least somewhat) independently of how, psycho…

It's like The End of History; a silly title for a silly piece of writing.

"The Singularity is an end-of-history notion. And it is showing its age, as most end-of-history notions do."

-- Bruce Sterling

(video link: http://fora.tv/2004/06/11/Bruce_Sterling#chapter_01 )

Re: The end of Philosophy

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, you're an evolved being with innate biases. There are solid natural reasons that most people share similar moral intuitions (read: emotions). If these intuitions did not exist, there would be no axioms from which to deduce other moral actions. Brooks' premise is naturalistic, that man is more complex than an avatar of pure reason. I think he's right.

He just messes up and shows his ignorance/stupidity when he tries to say that "man is more complex then an avatar of pure reason" implies "the processes by which man was created are more than is understandable by pure reason". believe what you want but thats a shoddy piece of reasoning.

Strictly speaking, everything is more than is understandable by pure reason.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He just messes up and shows his ignorance/stupidity when he tries to say that "man is more complex then an avatar of pure reason" implies "the processes by which man was created are more than is understandable by pure reason". believe what you want but thats a shoddy piece of reasoning.

Strictly speaking, everything is more than is understandable by pure reason.

"everything" might be more then is understandable by pure reason, i have to give you that.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#16
post #12

To paraphrase the article: Dear children, your silly worldview of objective rights and wrongs is outdated and wrong. Morality is purely subjective, a matter of taste. I provide no evidence or reasoning for my opinions but I do expect you to be challenged and wowed by their far-reaching consequences. If morality is purely subjective, then issues such as as gay marriage become purely a matter of taste. One person has t…

> Dear children, your silly worldview of objective rights and wrongs is outdated and wrong. Morality is purely subjective, a matter of taste. I provide no evidence or reasoning for my opinions but I do expect you to be challenged and wowed by their far-reaching consequences.

If you think that there is some objective morality that is inherent to the universe, the burden of proof is very much on you to show that, not on me to disprove it. (But if you need a disproof, here's as close as I can get: I am 100% certain that you cannot give a definition of "morality" that both meshes with what's expected of the term and that implies the existence of some fundamental objective framework for determining what's right and what's wrong. Just think about it for a while.

Or, alternatively [and not equivalently, but evocatively]: we're all just particles. You can give any brilliant argument you like about the morality of an action, and my particles are just gonna keep on doing whatever the fuck they want.)

As you discuss, lack of objective morality is horrible. It still makes me feel weird when I think about it, and I decided that "ethics" was bullshit when I was thirteen. My brain is hard-wired to believe that certain actions are "right" and certain actions are "wrong" in a sense that encompasses more than just my brain's response to those actions, so thinking about (what I see as) the truth about morality causes a dissonance between my conscious and my subconscious.

In the same way, my brain believes very deeply that everything has a cause, so it believes that there's a meaningful answer to the question, "Why does the universe exist?"

But that question doesn't have an answer. And objective morality doesn't exist. Sorry.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#17
post #8

I don't agree with his premise that people can't use reason to come to good moral principles, and then act on them. Figuring out morality his way--by emotion--would be abdicating your power to make positive change and leaving everything to random influences upon your life. A woman was mean to me as a kid? Well, I'll hate women. Everyone I know goes to church, and I have come to love Jesus? Well, that must be the righ…

I essentially see this as an extension of the naturalistic fallacy. "we should surrender to human nature because it is better than anything human reason can come up with."

such claims are not new, and they are not right.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#18
post #12

To paraphrase the article: Dear children, your silly worldview of objective rights and wrongs is outdated and wrong. Morality is purely subjective, a matter of taste. I provide no evidence or reasoning for my opinions but I do expect you to be challenged and wowed by their far-reaching consequences. If morality is purely subjective, then issues such as as gay marriage become purely a matter of taste. One person has t…

"This is a problem to say the least."

Can you state more clearly where you think the problem is? Or is it simply that you don't find this arrangement preferable?

Re: The end of Philosophy

#19
post #3

The article talks as if the idea that moral judgements are based on feeling or perception rather than on reason is a recent one. As one (important) example, Hume explicitly advocated such a position in the 1700s. It also seems to confuse moral philosophy and moral psychology. The former can use reason and arguments to attempt to justify practical principles and actions (at least somewhat) independently of how, psycho…

It's like The End of History; a silly title for a silly piece of writing.

What's so silly about The End of History? Although the title is somewhat hyperbolic, I agree.

Re: The end of Philosophy

#20
post #12

To paraphrase the article: Dear children, your silly worldview of objective rights and wrongs is outdated and wrong. Morality is purely subjective, a matter of taste. I provide no evidence or reasoning for my opinions but I do expect you to be challenged and wowed by their far-reaching consequences. If morality is purely subjective, then issues such as as gay marriage become purely a matter of taste. One person has t…

One of the great accomplishments of mathematics in the 20th century was to establish that the self-referential paradox ("This sentence is a lie") was not merely a clever word game or unimportant paradox to be waved away as irrelevant, but a deep and profound true paradox with implications that challenged mathematics to the core and changed it forever. Merely reading a bit about Godel's proof isn't enough; you need to read enough history to realize that what was amazing about Godel's proof isn't what it proved, but instead the fact that it was a proof. Mathematicians and even "normal people" have of course known about the paradox for millennia. What Godel did was truly, finally make it inescapable. You can not have a nontrivial consistent theory while still waving away the self-referential paradox.

I wish this style of proof would penetrate through to postmodern philosophers. If everything that one person chooses to believe is true for them, and that person chooses to believe that there is an objective truth that precludes this statement, then you have a problem. This is not wordplay or an irrelevant point, any more than Godel's proof was. Either there are false statements about morality, or your claim that everything is subjectively true is also false. It's not a trivial point.

And I find that in practice, what gives is that postmodernists do in fact believe in absolute morality and it's all just a game to fool themselves and you into thinking otherwise. I see no reason to play that game any more, especially as I think most people would be repulsed if they took the time to work through what postmodern morality really is, instead of what it claims to be.

(This doesn't mean that we automatically know what the objective morality is, or whether there is one or many. It simply means that true subjective morality is fatally and irretrievably flawed. I say "true" because the moment you introduce an absolute, it is no longer subjective. Any absolute will do. Moralities can be quite complicated and nuanced, like utilitarianism, even as a utilitarianist must inevitably take their utility measurement as an absolute axiom. There isn't much "absolute" there, but it is non-zero.)

That said, reading the original article, I'm not sure that David Brooks would necessarily disagree with what I just wrote. I'm not sure he's advocating total relativism so much as observing that whatever concretes may exists seem to bear no particular relationship to the concretes that are claimed by anybody, religious (or aggressively non-religious), philosophical, or otherwise. I think there's a difference between merely observing and making claims about what should be true, and this op-ed strikes me more as an observation. So I guess I'm responding more to your comment than the article.

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