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Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

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Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#81

Post by bp001 »

paul wrote: post #79
bp001 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PG, this is a very interesting comment to me. The reason I say this is that I cite your article 'Mind the Gap' at www.paulgraham.com/gap.html as a an excellent distillation of the key points of Atlas Shrugged with a bit of a technology focus. I had believed that Atlas Shrugged was an inspiration for this article. I guess I was wrong and you have independently argued a lot of the same concepts. Yes, I have read both F…

I mostly agree with your statement that "personal freedom and the ability for individuals to focus on their goals with as little artificial interference as possible leads to the greatest societal gain", and I probably agree with whatever PG wrote in 'Mind the Gap' (it's been a while), but Rand seems like something else. She turns it into an extreme ideology, throws in way too much certainty (do her hero's ever consid…

Agree that she takes the message to an extreme that isn't realistic in many cases. It's hard for me to imagine a person being able to live a happy life taking the message to the extreme Rand does in AS. Also, Atlas Shrugged is extremely long for the message it delivers.

However, I actually enjoyed the book and the story. Before I read the book, I had a lot of random and poorly formed ideas about what was economically moral, and this really helped me to crystallize my viewpoints.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#82

Post by jrmurad »

patrickg-zill wrote: post #50

One need only look at the current mess of Zimbabwe, where all the productive people both black and white, were driven out or killed, to see "John Galt" in action.

Care to explain? It is my understanding that they are being driven out and killed by armed thugs. I'm not sure what percentage of said thugs are government agents but I know it's not 0. How is this John Galt (who desires a world free of the aggressive initiation of force) "in action"?

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#83

Post by bp001 »

paul wrote: post #53
robg wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a huge Rand fan but I just thought it was an interesting take on why business folks have adopted her. The philosophy works well with architecture because of "classical" limitations and the power of the individual to evoke change in the modern world. That's a message that any startupper needs even as you're certainly right - we need to iterate with customers in mind. But then, that's our sector. Imagine those craz…

Yes, clearly we sometimes need to push what is "normal" and create things that people don't yet know they want, but we should be pragmatic about it. For example, Esperanto may be a more "rational" and well designed language, but I'm going to keep using English because that's what works for me. The early cars were "horseless carriages" because that was easier to build and easier for people to relate to, and there's no…

The notion that "I know exactly what people need and my ideas are all rational and brilliant while other's are stupid and irrational" in one that people are absolutely entitled to. Arrogant, yes - wrong, I don't think so.

The funny thing is that in the Fountainhead, Howard Roark really sacrificed A LOT for his singular focus on the types of projects he wanted to work on. His measure of value in his life was not having steady jobs, but achieving his vision. If someone wants to focus on something that doesn't match the conventional goals, I don't see that as being a problem as long as it doesn't inhibit other's freedoms.

Rand again takes this to the extreme, but it helps her to make a point (and makes for a more interesting story).

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#84

Post by rms »

gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #47
gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does Brittany Spears fit in the Kardashev Scale? There a millions of people that think she is more important than energy consumption. Should we put them all in the gas chamber? Only if we can use them as fuel.

(You guys do get that I'm joking, right...?)

These crazy Rand zealots have no sense of humor.

:P

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#86

Post by rms »

gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #26
rms wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, there isn't one. I lost here, I forgot that Objectivism ends up encompassing any rational belief so it's hard to argue against it.

Well, it doesn't. The exact rational beliefs that Objectivism encompasses were very carefully laid out by Rand before her death, and all other opinions, beliefs or perspectives were explicitly denounced as irrational. It's hard to take anything seriously that on the one hand says "reject irrationality, think for yourself, reach your own conclusion!" and on the other hand says "but the only way you'll know, and we'll…

If there is no response to this post in 48 hours, I declare you winner of this thread with an honorable mention for Paul Bucheit's South Park quote.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#87

Post by uuilly »

jrmurad wrote: post #82
patrickg-zill wrote: post #50

One need only look at the current mess of Zimbabwe, where all the productive people both black and white, were driven out or killed, to see "John Galt" in action.

Care to explain? It is my understanding that they are being driven out and killed by armed thugs. I'm not sure what percentage of said thugs are government agents but I know it's not 0. How is this John Galt (who desires a world free of the aggressive initiation of force) "in action"?

Mr. Mugabe nationalized all farms in Zimbabwe. There were many British Empire leftovers (white guys) running farms quite successfully. Zimbabwe was actually one of the rare African hopes pre Mugabe. Many said it would be the "bread basket" of Africa the way Ukraine is to Europe and Kansas is to the US. Mugabe siezed all "white owned" land and had native Zimbabweans run the farms. Predictably this all went to shit and their inflation rate now hovers between 6,000% and 10,000%. No exageration. When nobody could run the farms he actually buldozed tenemants and told the inhabitants to go work on the farms. Very little edible food has materialized.

The way this relates to Ayn Rand is that in all her stories the captains of industry are pervceived as evil profit mongers by the masses. The masses evantually rise up and take back what's "theirs" and the entire economy grinds to a halt. This is what Rand witnessed in the Russian Revolution and this is exactly what is happening in Zimbabwe today.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#88

Post by uuilly »

rms wrote: post #84
gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(You guys do get that I'm joking, right...?)

These crazy Rand zealots have no sense of humor. :P

You're probably right. By definition we take ourselves too seriously. But I think what you're seeing has been a long time coming. The Rand Zealots in the tech world have been lurking in the corners of Slashdot, Digg and Reddit listening to a cacophony of post modern, no up or down, no left or right emotional bullshit. I for one am sick of armchair socialists, open source evangalists and peddlers of western guilt. We like our one's and zeros but there is a lot we have to put up with to hang. I think this thread has released the Ayn Rand hounds.

Political disagreements stem from philosophical disagreements. If two mathematicians were arguing about geometry and one assumed that parallel lines never met and the other assumed they did they would not have a meaningful conversation. The problem with most conversations is they mostly deal with surface issues. Clinton or Obama. Bush or Kerry. Blah or Bleh.

Amen to Hacker news for getting to the heart of the matter. And to the the non-Rand-ers, apologies for our intensity and contrarian views. But this conversation will be good for everyone...

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