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The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

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Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#31

As a hiring manager of non-specialized software developers, I take people with 4-6 years of real world coding over a phd any day. We generally hire phd's at the same level/pay as a bachelors in cs with maybe only a nominal amount more in salary. the skills you learn as a phd are not really what the industry needs, unless you manage to find one of the small number of jobs that requires whatever specific thing you stud…

I concur. My experience with CS PhDs is that they lack the production-oriented mindset needed for the real world. We hired a CS PhD to write reports for us. In six months he did not write one single line of code, but produced a very impressive whitepaper about the code he intended to write. He went on to write more whitepapers for a company specializing in vaporware somewhere else. I've had similar experiences with P…

I find your experience with PhDs fascinating because it's been the exact opposite of my experience with graduate school. My graduate program has been far more production oriented than any of the private sector work I've ever done.

In the private sector, I've been given a list of specifications and told to report back in a week on what progress I'd made. In research, on the other hand, a professor would hand me the requirements and then stand there until I delivered the code. If the professor was on a looser deadline, he might take a chair while he waited me. Most deadlines are measured in hours, instead of days, so the thought of a PhD not having his code finished in a month is baffling to me.

Of course, I'll also be the first to admit that this still produces some poor production habits. When you have a twenty minute deadline to write code in a language you've never seen before on during your first ever experience on a VAX, you tend to skip the unit tests. And the source control. And the comments. And the white space. But, I'd like to think that, if I had an extra hour, I'd go back for all of that.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#32
post #26
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important, but rarely overtly stated reason for foreigners to attend grad school in the United States is immigration. A graduate degree (esp in STEM disciplines) is a relatively secure way of getting a student visa, getting a job while on OPT, getting an H1B and finally a Green Card. Of course it does not mean that immigration is the sole reason for asians to attend US grad school in hordes, but it is an important…

I don't understand the motivation there at all - shouldn't the US be trying to hold on to the most educated foreigners as much as possible?

You made the mistake of assuming that the US immigration policy is rational.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#33
post #8

I think it depends on whose perspective you're talking about. I think for typical engineers, especially in EE/CS, the increase in earning power from the PhD doesn't make up for the six years of lost income and career progression. But I think from the point of view of society, it's absolutely worth it. The most brilliant engineers I know are PhDs. They have this incredible depth of theoretical understanding of a parti…

I think you're right about some classes of PhD and benefit for society. It may be a case of market failure; I'd certainly prefer to support PhD programs in CS through charity and/or taxes than a lot of other things.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#34
I've been "All But Dissertation" for two years now for a PhD in sociology. I haven't touched my dissertation after having my proposal approved. Instead, I co-founded an organization that addresses the problem that I discovered in my preliminary research. Right now, my decision feels right.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#35
post #26
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important, but rarely overtly stated reason for foreigners to attend grad school in the United States is immigration. A graduate degree (esp in STEM disciplines) is a relatively secure way of getting a student visa, getting a job while on OPT, getting an H1B and finally a Green Card. Of course it does not mean that immigration is the sole reason for asians to attend US grad school in hordes, but it is an important…

I don't understand the motivation there at all - shouldn't the US be trying to hold on to the most educated foreigners as much as possible?

One country that does it right is Canada--they try very hard to keep top talent in the country instead of going to their previous homes.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#36
Getting a Ph.D. is "often a waste of time". Sometimes it's much worse: I've seen too many lives seriously hurt or even destroyed, as in they died, e.g., from suicide from clinical depression, from the stresses of a Ph.D. program. Some of the students hurt or killed were brilliant, some of the best undergraduate students in the world, PBK, 'summa cum laude', Woodrow Wilson, NSF, etc.

Still the fact that a Ph.D. is "often a waste of time" should not be regarded as very important. Why? Because that statement is essentially a probability. So, if W is the 'event' of a waste of time and P is a probability measure, then the claim is that the probability of W, P(W), is too large. I'd agree P(W) is too large.

But a given student usually doesn't have to 'face' only P(W) and, instead, has information about some more 'events', say, A, B, and C, that are relevant, and then gets to observe an estimate of the 'conditional probability of W given A, B, and C', that is, P(W|A, B, C). Then, even if P(W) is too high, P(W|A, B, C) can be quite low in which case that student might go ahead.

We know that a Ph.D. is the 'union card' for professors in college and universities. While there can be a lot to discuss about a career as a professor, I set that aside as, at least for HN readers, not very interesting.

But, what about a Ph.D. for careers other than being a professor? Okay:

I limit my discussion to Ph.D. degrees in 'technical' fields. I omit biomedical fields due to my limited knowledge of those fields.

There are pros and cons:

Cons. In nearly every line of work other than being a professor, having a Ph.D. is 'unusual'. So, in particular, if a Ph.D. takes a a job, say, job J, at company UGE, then somewhere in the path in the tree of the organization chart of company UGE from job J to the CEO likely there will be a person S without a Ph.D. where person S has a Ph.D. reporting to them. This is an uncomfortable situation; lawyers know this, and supposedly their profession tries to arrange that any working lawyer reports only to a lawyer. This unfortunate situation is a special case of the larger situation that Ph.D. holders in technical fields do not have a strong 'profession' to protect them.

A Ph.D. in electronic engineering can at times want to swap their degree for an electrician's license -- good union card, key to a sole proprietorship that commonly pays well enough to buy a house and support a family, a rock solidly stable industry, a great geographical barrier to entry.

Why "awkward"? Because person S will be afraid of two cases: (1) The Ph.D. training is irrelevant so that the Ph.D. holder will have their degree influencing their job performance in ways irrelevant to the job. (2) The Ph.D. training is relevant in which case the subordinate may conclude that their supervisor S is low on competence and, thus, be insubordinate and, with their extra competence, may be a threat to the career of person S.

So, if get a technical Ph.D. and pursue a non-academic job, then likely will be in an awkward position without help of a recognized, respected profession.

Pro. One aid in making 'the big bucks' is to do some work that meets three criteria: -- powerful, valuable, and new. If everyone over at UGE is determined to hire people only like themselves, keep down any additional competence, and, net, just keep doing things they way they long have been doing them, then a person with work meeting the three criteria might have a golden opportunity. Call it 'innovation', 'creative destruction', 'survival of the fittest', or just blowing the doors off those other guys, getting the big house, winter vacation house, summer vacation house, sports cars, good, old Stradivarius violin for a talented daughter, help getting into Princeton for another child, yacht, for wine for dinner parties, shopping, for a few dozen cases, between Beaune and Dijon, seat at the Round Table of the university president, for a child help getting through graduate school and seed funding for a startup, etc. Or just quite a lot of additional financial security.

Of course, in this case will be 'different'; maybe in a good way different but definitely not the same. Often will not 'fit in'. E.g., would not be hired at UGE.

But being different is commonly what goes with success, which in itself is 'different'.

So, what does a Ph.D. have to do with doing some work that has the three criteria of powerful, valuable, and new? Answer, a lot: Those three criteria are essentially those of some successful original research -- the usual statement is "new, correct, and significant" but for non-academic work we can substitute the three criteria I gave. So, the crucial work is necessarily about 'research'.

So, how to do 'research'? Well, history shows that commonly it's not easy, but there's education for that, called Ph.D. programs at the best 20 or so US research universities -- many of the names are well known, Harvard, MIT, Cornell, Brown, Yale, Columbia, NYU (and Courant), Princeton, Johns Hopkins, UNC, Georgia Tech, CMU (see, Jerry, I didn't leave you out!), University of Chicago, University of Washington, Berkeley, Stanford, Cal Tech.

Nearly always the main difficulty in a Ph.D. program is the research part. For a good, succinct description of much of the challenge, buried in at least the machine readable copy of D. Knuth's 'The TeXBook' is

     "The traditional way is to
     put off all creative
     aspects until the last part
     of graduate school.  For
     seventeen or more years, a
     student is taught
     examsmanship, then suddenly
     after passing enough exams
     in graduate school he's
     told to do something
     original."
And there can be other challenges.

But as difficult as the original work is via a Ph.D. program, commonly such work is more difficult otherwise. So, for someone in business trying to do work with the three criteria I listed, a Ph.D. program should be a big help.

In my Web 2.0 startup, the computing is often a pain in the back side due to poorly written documentation, system management headaches, security holes, ..., bugs but is all just routine. The key to my startup, if it is successful, will be some work that meets the three criteria, and for that work I have to admit that my Ph.D. program helped.

So, right, glad you noticed: If get a technical Ph.D. and want to use it outside of academics, then are heavily betting on doing some work that meets the three criteria and being a founder of a successful startup.

Maybe there are too few examples successful Web 2.0 companies founded by a Ph.D. who did some research crucial to the success of the company. Then can take this situation as evidence that (1) a Ph.D. and some research are not powerful or (2) there is a wide open field full of opportunities. My guess is (2).

I know; I know: But why can't there be just a nice, easy, secure, 20-30 hour a week job that will provide good financial security for life? Well, Obama already has that job (that's intended to be a joke!).

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#37
post #25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, the top tech firms aggressively recruit CS PhDs.

Well, more power to them. They have the resources to train them up to a level where they'll be productive.

Or perhaps this thread is full of obscene generalizations that are untrue. Hell, it even started off on the wrong foot by invoking "real world". All that term means is that you think your work is somehow relevant while the work of others, in this case PhDs, is not relevant.

Parts of this community have a real problem with ego and unsubstantiated generalizations.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#38
post #24
post #13

The decision to enter a PhD program only makes sense for one of the two reasons: either you think you're going to win a Nobel Prize one day, or, you don't mind spending five years in a way which doesn't advance any goal (literal quote from a conversation I had, "so you had an offer from Google but you decided to do a PhD instead--why??", "Oh, I just want to do nothing for a while longer".) The two kinds of PhD studen…

Look at the interesting things Google is doing. Driverless cars is headed up by Sabastian Thrun (PhD). The technical lead on Google Glass is Thad Starner (PhD and professor at my alma mater). Heck, Page and Brin were halfway through their PhD program at Stanford (both have an MS from there) before they founded Google. PageRank was exactly the kind of thing that comes from PhD projects (extension and application of th…

Google's early success was much about the supportive environment for founding a company, not the academics: networking with investors and early hires, getting recommendations from influential professors, than it was about the "PhD project" of PageRank. It was a standard graph algorithm executed on the Internet, not a ground-breaking academic project. (Obviously -- they left school before they did much any work on PageRank)

If PageRank were a new idea now, Google.com could have come up through YC.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would limit that to just #2 in your list. The other two carrots are so out of your reach or subject to factors so far beyond your control that a love for learning and a burning interest in your research is the only thing that you can count on sustaining you.

#1 is also pretty achievable. For example, if you get a Ph.D. studying how to implement compilers and virtual machines, you basically have your choice of which place that implements compiler or VMs to work at (source: I am about to defend my Ph.D. in implementing compilers and VMs).

But how many places are there that do that? You have google, Microsoft, maybe intel, a few companies in the valley. PhDs are very specialized, and so they really can be at the mercy of their hot skill.

And even google...might tell you to go work on ads with your hot VM/compiler skills. Disclosure: I'm a PL PhD who got out of the vm/compiler area to focus on PL design, which is even more esoteric.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#40
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur. My experience with CS PhDs is that they lack the production-oriented mindset needed for the real world. We hired a CS PhD to write reports for us. In six months he did not write one single line of code, but produced a very impressive whitepaper about the code he intended to write. He went on to write more whitepapers for a company specializing in vaporware somewhere else. I've had similar experiences with P…

Meanwhile, the top tech firms aggressively recruit CS PhDs.

Ya, google is sucking up many of them. But don't tell parent, he doesn't get it and doesn't need to get it.
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