Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why you do open source?

news.ycombinator.com

51–60 of 84 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#51
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But open source software doesn't necessarily avoid the waste that you're describing. Just look at MySQL, and derived DBs like MariaDB and Drizzle. There is much overlap with PostgreSQL, but PostgreSQL is objectively superior in just about every way. Then there is all of the effort put toward the various libraries and tools for each, toward other application support for each, and so forth. Is it not wasteful when peop…

Spending time with FUD and bile arguing against open source projects, now that's a waste of time. Complaining about licenses and inefficiencies is also a waste of time when it's done by people who are not directly involved in development. Compare that with exploring different paradigms and priorities (such as Postgres and Mysql who happen to have very different philosophies), which is absolutely OK in my book. Nobody…

PostgreSQL is appealing to professionals who have a solid understanding of relational theory, who have much experience creating, using and maintaining large, heavily-used and high-availability databases, and who can quite easily see the many flaws with lesser database systems. These are the kind of people who, knowing that better exists, will indeed speak out loudly against that which is inferior.

You portray it as some sort of a "conflict" between open source projects, but that couldn't be any more distant from the truth. It's all about doing things properly. Some database systems do this, and there are some that don't. We should acknowledge this fact.

It surely is not a waste of time or effort to educate people about the reality of the situation, especially those who may ignorantly be using a certain inferior product without even realizing that there are better alternative out there.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#52
I don't have to be extorted by companies that want me to pay extra for bug fixes, or ignored by companies that won't fix bugs at all. If a bug concerns/affects me enough, I can fix it myself, or hire someone to fix it. (yes that's still paying someone to fix the bug, but to me it's different)

And if I do fix a bug myself, I can make a patch available to others so they can benefit as well.

Ultimately, it's about control of my resources.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#53
1. In FLOSS you have more execution freedom. Well it all depends on ownership, size and way project is govern, but developer can always choose to fork or to contribute to other projects. You can't do that in big companies.

2. You can, mostly, work on ideas you think are worth doing. This is really awesome because worth is subjective term and only way to see you were right is to do it (your own way). "Talk is cheap, show me the code".

3. With right license you can take others code to fill parts of your project (either temporary or permanent). Helps in time consumption and agility. Ofc, you can always rewrite whenever and whatever you want. Some people think that reinwentihg the wheel is bad, but it all depends on situation. Sometimes it's even better then using bad code.

4. If you share code, someone will eventually modify it, so you can choose to integrate changes back (if worth merging). Only problem here is situation when people are using non-compatible licenses.

5. More hacker's culture in FLOSS in general.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#54
I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc...

I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know.

Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you).

Email: michael.o.church at gmail

[Start here]

In my opinion, the economic problem of the 21st-century is convexity. Go here for further reading: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/gervais-macle... . I have a whole slew of posts on economic topics that I've put together over the past 2 months. The effect of convexity is a movement from low-risk commodity work to risk-intrinsic work (i.e. its value is purely in its natural uncertainty, and not discomfort as with commodity labor) that is more fun and creative, but harder to make a living from. The overarching theme of economics from 1975 to now has been the offloading of commodity work to machines, who can do it more reliably. The hard and somewhat creative stuff, like programming these machines, is what's left for humans. (Actually, there's a lot of concave grunt work in coding; the goal is to have it done by programs called compilers that, again, can do that concave/boring stuff way better than we.) So the only thing left for humans is the risk-intrinsic convex stuff. I've been studying Convexity for years and it is a big f_king social problem. Convex work has high expectancy but lots of risk and it can't put forward the mediocre, regular income that average people are used to (and could not stand to be without).

Software is the leading edge of convex economics. It's the first battlefield between the old industrial regime (everyone gets a mediocre wage for mediocre work) and Convexity. With convexity, you have a long learning period before your earning period (in which, ideally, you keep learning). During that (poorly paid or unpaid, often) learning period, you build a lot of cool stuff. Eventually, you get to a level of expertise and product-quality that people will pay for it; but it's impossible to know (until you engage directly with the market) how close you are to that point. So you end up building lots of still-quite-cool (if not professional-grade) stuff in which there's no harm in giving it away for free. As programmers, we don't really fear people "stealing our ideas"; ideas are cheap and easy; code is hard. That's part of why we pretty much unanimously hate software patents.

Convexity creates risk for workers (because it makes full employment uncommon if not untenable) but also for institutions that need to hire people. Talent discovery is a massive problem. (I'm writing on that right now.) Companies have to pay about $10,000 to hire a 1.2-level (scale here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/the-trajector... ) programmer (interview time/opportunity cost) and about $40,000 to hire a 1.5 (add recruiting fees, hiring bonuses, perks and more interviewing). How much does it cost to hire a 2.2+? (Sometimes you need that level of talent.) Almost a million (mostly in R&D budgets to build an autonomy culture.) The only places where 2.2+ programmers want to work are companies with extremely high levels of autonomy where they can do 2.3+ level R&D work; no managerial meddling, full autonomy over time, plenty of resources. (The 2.2+ "repay" that $500-700k by doing excellent work, of course.) The reason Valve has an open allocation culture and Google used to have one (before ~2009) is that, even if it's "expensive" to hire engineers and have them doing R&D with full autonomy, that's what you have to do if you want to hire the (rare and picky) 2.2+.

So talent discovery is a hard problem, and there's a bilateral matching problem wherein companies find it really hard to hire the people they want, and even good engineers have significant job latency. The bilateral matching problem only gets worse as you move up the skill curve. (I'm a 1.8 and have had 3-month job searches; then again, I'm really picky.)

The old way for undiscovered (usu. young) talent to gate-crash this discovery problem was to pay 50 thousand goddamn dollars per year to some institution already sitting on billions, for 4 years, and then get discovered by another billionaire corporation, climb its organizational ladder doing low-paid boring work, and eventually show (around age 35) that you're ready to do real work (after 10+ mind-numbing years of order-taking that killed your creativity). Well, that's just too inefficient to hold water (get it? convexity, holding water? bad joke. anyway...) anymore.

Traditionally, convex labor with extreme talent-discovery problems (such as Hollywood acting and scientific research, where the natural talent us rare) fell to gatekeepers (literary agents, Ivy League admissions officers, graduate departments, athletic recruiters) who were imperfect and sometimes corrupt, but did the job. The problem with software is that no one is qualified to serve this "middleman" role because only an equal or superior engineer can judge another software engineer's work. So, it's not just that it's desirable to get around these middling agents; it's that the only people who can really do the job are software engineers, who'd rather write code.

So the new way to fix the talent-discovery problem seems to be to create this giant, amazing gift economy that we call "open source" (and blogging, print-and-play games, also are part of this). You participate because (a) it's more fun to build cool stuff and give it away than to spend 75+ percent of your time selling and So that's why we give cool stuff away for free.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#55

I have a friend who wrote a open source library that is very popular. It is a testing framework that is very well known from within the Python community. This guy was a coworker of mine a few years ago. When he sent a resume to the company, they pretty much hired him on the spot because of the fact that he was the author of [famous open source project]. He didn't go through any interview process, at least not in the…

You don't really need to be author of a "famous" library. Just having a body of high quality code on display (even if not used by a lot of people), sets you apart from the majority of programmers.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#56

I'll paste this same text into your Google Doc... I don't know what your technical level is so I'll aim for college-educated with a broad understanding of technology. Apologies if I come off as condescending; I don't know what you know. Feel free to use this in your paper. You can also snip out profanity of course (or leave it in for flavor; that's up to you). Email: michael.o.church at gmail [Start here] In my opini…

Yep. Got an interview for a software engineer position after someone looked at my Github, when a repo of mine was trending overall. I've got an Art degree, and no formal CS training - but the internet is a powerful and beautiful place.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#57
Software is another medium for my art. I used to think that the best way of getting my creativity and projects seen was to put software in people's hands. Now I know that the best way is to put easy-to-use, beautiful components in the hands of devs to exponentially influence more end users.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#58
post #55

I have a friend who wrote a open source library that is very popular. It is a testing framework that is very well known from within the Python community. This guy was a coworker of mine a few years ago. When he sent a resume to the company, they pretty much hired him on the spot because of the fact that he was the author of [famous open source project]. He didn't go through any interview process, at least not in the…

You don't really need to be author of a "famous" library. Just having a body of high quality code on display (even if not used by a lot of people), sets you apart from the majority of programmers.

In my experience, few people cares about your open source work unless its something they have heard of. _I_ may care. _You_ may care. But most people don't. I have a "large body of code on display" in my github, but I know for a fact that no one ever looks at it.

Re: Ask HN: Why you do open source?

#60
Michael church makes an excellent point on one side.

There's another really important aspect: the multiplicative productivity speed up of building systems by working with a larger community of smart engineers. It's just damn faster to build large tools / libraries when more people are helping out.

I know some S class epic level engineers, some of whom I'd like to consider friends. The engineering projects they do are ridiculous, amazing, and just damn bAller.

But If you ask them why they open source, it's not just all the work opportunities they get. Another large part is that no one person is smart enough and productive enough to do everything on their own. (As much as we all dream of being super human. )

Post reply on HN