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Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

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Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#51
post #40
post #25

FTA: Taxation: How do governments collect taxes on transactions in Bitcoin? The answer is they don't, and they can't. Though many Bitcoin fans don't quite realize it, Bitcoin's radical transparency could in fact be a tax-collector's wet dream. Every public-key, balance, and transaction is public. A government that wants to coopt and efficiently tax Bitcoin could announce the following policy, based on the idea of 'ta…

What happens if I send dirty money to my enemy's registered address?

The same thing that happens if you deposit them in his bank account?

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#52
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bitcoin is interfering with the ability of the government to stop consensual transactions between adults." UH OH

I wonder how anyone can think that is the case. Can the government stop me from buying something with USD? Not a chance.

>Can the government stop me from buying something with USD? Not a chance.

What? Of course they can. They can get a warrant and bust into your house and put you in jail if they have basis to believe you have bought something they think you shouldn't have (drugs, child porn, slaves, and tons of other things).

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#53
post #51
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if I send dirty money to my enemy's registered address?

The same thing that happens if you deposit them in his bank account?

Genuine question, what happens then? And would the IRS necessarily see these regular deposits as inherently dirty, or merely unknown? If I were to make structured payments over a long period of time, low enough that they were unnoticed each time, how much pleading of ignorance would it take before the IRS decided that the person really did not intend for that to happen?

And could not someone disposit dirty money into their own account and plead the same? Even if you have to forfiet the money (if you haven't already accidentally spent it...) simply holding on to money temporarily can be avantageous.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#54
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HSBC knew what they were doing, that is things were explicitly illegal, and profited from that. Who actually launders money then? Hint: it's not mobsters since their craft is illegal by itself and therefore no separate law for laundering would be needed.

> HSBC knew what they were doing, that is things were explicitly illegal, and profited from that. The whole point is that the government couldn't prove that HSBC knew what was going on. The only thing they could prove was that the internal controls were broken (and that they knew they were broken and did nothing to fix it).

And yet, if it was some poor black kid caught on the wrong side of the tracks, the government/justice system could happily put his ass in jail despite them not being able to prove anything or him being innocent. As has happened time and again...

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#55
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that the proper response? If one person gets away with running a red light, do we just turn them all off? The travesty of HSBC getting away with their crimes should be a reminder of the value of the rule of law and an impetus to fight even harder against those that would think themselves above it.

If this person is a minister of interior affairs then yes, we should just turn them all off. And HSBC is something like that. It's exactly the bank that "we all the citizens" should trust in order to not be "anti-democratic" as another article put it. And you know what, we're not going to trust HSBC or any other bank, no more.

You sound surprised. But why?

To trust a bank with your money, under certain conditions, I understand.

But who in his right mind trusts a bank as a "moral entity"? Banks/bankers are the scum of the earth. To quote Brecht:

"What's breaking into a bank compared to founding one?"

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#56
post #54
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HSBC knew what they were doing, that is things were explicitly illegal, and profited from that. The whole point is that the government couldn't prove that HSBC knew what was going on. The only thing they could prove was that the internal controls were broken (and that they knew they were broken and did nothing to fix it).

And yet, if it was some poor black kid caught on the wrong side of the tracks, the government/justice system could happily put his ass in jail despite them not being able to prove anything or him being innocent. As has happened time and again...

By and large, the government doesn't put poor black kids in jail without proof. A lot of my friends are public defenders working with these sorts of people, and by and large they commit the crimes they're accused of committing. The problem isn't that the government jails these people without proof, it's that you and I as voters, along with "just say no!" moms, etc, have continually voted for "tough on crime" laws that punish these people vastly out of proportion with what they did. But they did do it, and the police have proof because it's easy to prove "poor black kid" crimes. It's easy to prove it with evidence like "you tried to sell drugs to an undercover cop" or "we found the stolen car at your house."

With white collar crime the situation is different. Those laws make otherwise innocuous acts and omissions criminal to achieve broader social purposes. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with saying an incorrect fact to a shareholder, or making a killing on a lucky trade, or getting the better end of a big deal. All those things only become wrong with proof of criminal intent (you knew the fact was wrong and intended to defraud investors--you didn't just make a mistake or restate a bad projection, you had inside information about the trade--you didn't just get lucky, you didn't disclose information you knew to be material to your counter-party).

We require intent for these things, because they are otherwise quite ordinary. They happen all time. People make mistakes all the time. People get lucky on trades all the time. People get the better of a deal all the time. It's only intent that makes them wrong.

But intent is intrinsically hard to prove. If you want to nail a "poor black kid" for grand theft auto, you just have to prove that he has the car and it's someone else's car. The intent requirement (that he didn't do it involuntarily) is easy to prove from circumstances. If you want to nail a banker for insider trading, you not only have to prove that the trade physically happened (which is easy), but you have to prove that the banker knew insider information. And proving what was inside someone's head is hard.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#58
post #53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing that happens if you deposit them in his bank account?

Genuine question, what happens then? And would the IRS necessarily see these regular deposits as inherently dirty, or merely unknown? If I were to make structured payments over a long period of time, low enough that they were unnoticed each time, how much pleading of ignorance would it take before the IRS decided that the person really did not intend for that to happen? And could not someone disposit dirty money into…

The classic movie Say Anything touches on this issue as part of its plot.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#59

Crypto-currencies might be, but I don't think Bitcoin is an existential threat to the modern liberal state. The anonymity that every mainstream article claims Bitcoin has is not nearly as strong as it's made out to be[1][2][3]. The built-in deflationary aspect of Bitcoin seems to prevent it from being used as a "serious" currency. Hiding money under your mattress should never be the optimal approach to making more mo…

Google doesn't lose your mail. BofA could keep track of your bit coins.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#60
post #9

I've been a bitcoin supporter. But there is a twinge in me that remembers government, properly set up, can often protect the weak from the strong. Extremely wealthy corporations and individuals moving around anonymous money would make it impossible to tax and impossible to know where political contributions were coming from. I don't know the answer-- I flip flop back and forth between total openness for everyone and…

Lucky for you that bit coin is 100% non-anonymous, and every transaction is published to every entity in the economy.
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