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Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

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Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#31
Crypto-currencies might be, but I don't think Bitcoin is an existential threat to the modern liberal state.

The anonymity that every mainstream article claims Bitcoin has is not nearly as strong as it's made out to be[1][2][3].

The built-in deflationary aspect of Bitcoin seems to prevent it from being used as a "serious" currency. Hiding money under your mattress should never be the optimal approach to making more money. (It might not prevent people from using the currency, but it's highly sub-optimal.)

The fragility of the currency concerns me (by which I mean the way it's possible to lose massive amounts of money by losing a file or forgetting a password). Maybe this is a technical problem that will be solved with a more mature ecosystem, but I like the way that a real bank always has ways to access money when bad things happen (at least in a functioning banking system). This thread[4] documents the loss of about 70,000 Bitcoins, which is worth about ten million dollars today. Related to this, if somebody hacked the EFF's Twitter account and posted that they were accepting Bitcoin donations on some address, a lot of Bitcoins would disappear into somebodies wallet. You could argue that Bitcoin is a more perfect sort of system, but it's not without downsides.

Maybe another crypto-currency will come along and solve these problems. I think I hope it does. But I don't see Bitcoin supplanting modern state-backed currencies. I find it hard to see Bitcoin being used more widely than by the idealogues, the speculators, and those who find utility in it (like Silk Road, but not just that).

1. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1107.4524.pdf

2. http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf

3. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity

4. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7253.0

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ISP "deliberately" routes child pornography over their networks all the time--that doesn't make them distributors of child pornography. HSBC provides a banking service. Unlike with ISPs, they are responsible for overseeing how their service is used, to prevent money laundering. Failing to oversee the employees who failed to follow the regulations designed to prevent HSBC's service being used for money laundering…

HSBC knew what they were doing, that is things were explicitly illegal, and profited from that. Who actually launders money then? Hint: it's not mobsters since their craft is illegal by itself and therefore no separate law for laundering would be needed.

> HSBC knew what they were doing, that is things were explicitly illegal, and profited from that.

The whole point is that the government couldn't prove that HSBC knew what was going on. The only thing they could prove was that the internal controls were broken (and that they knew they were broken and did nothing to fix it).

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#33
post #25

FTA: Taxation: How do governments collect taxes on transactions in Bitcoin? The answer is they don't, and they can't. Though many Bitcoin fans don't quite realize it, Bitcoin's radical transparency could in fact be a tax-collector's wet dream. Every public-key, balance, and transaction is public. A government that wants to coopt and efficiently tax Bitcoin could announce the following policy, based on the idea of 'ta…

It's even more simple than that: There's nothing about paper money that enables tax collection either. And yet somehow, taxes continue to exist.

Bitcoin is only a currency, not an entire financial system. It is a replacement for pieces of paper or shiny metal with doodles of George Washington stamped on them. It is not a replacement for banks, or credit cards, most other ephemera that people have constructed on top of currency. In point of fact, people are having to re-invent financial institutions in order to make Bitcoin more useful. And it's those institutions, not the underlying currency, where government attaches taxation.

It may become more feasible in the Bitcoin era to run a financial institution that plays entirely outside the US's jurisdiction. Nonetheless, there would be a large market for legitimized (and taxed) financial institutions, to provide services to the large number of entities that the government would take a hard look at anyways. My gut is that two parallel economies is an unstable situation, and the shadow-economy would not receive must traction compared to the legitimized one.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#34
The only way you could think bitcoin is a threat to state revenue is by misunderstanding methods of taxation. Income and corporate taxes are determined almost entirely by self reporting and laws that shift tax burdens from one entity to another which require disclosure. It's relatively easy to evade taxes as long as you operate in a closed loop where no one reports even with modern financial instruments.

The problem only comes when you want to use the money to buy things from taxpayers, which is, you know, most business. This is such a problem that money laundering is primarily concerned with finding ways to pay taxes not to avoid them, so that people can pay for houses and such. Bitcoin actually makes this far more difficult than USD because of the encoded transactional history - just ask anyone sitting on the large piles of stolen bitcoins that have yet to be retransfered.

The methods of enforcement would change, for sure. But anyone who thinks that revenue offices would be unable to model monetary distribution via the blockchain hasn't been paying attention to what US security forces have been doing with the databases of how groups interact based on who they call (association graphs).

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#35
Wow, the financial press is falling in love with writing about Bitcoin.

Now that it's been linked to Cyprus there's an increased probability of Bitcoin being discussed in reference to future Eurozone economic events. Which means more mainstream awareness & more potential adopters.

I have a hard time seeing Bitcoin going away in the near future. Even if it's a bubble, and I have my doubts about that, odds are we have yet to reach the peak.

It's political nature also holds a lot of potential. There are some very, very discontent people all over the world, both Western and non-Western. Segments of the Greek population have latched onto neo-nazism -- is it really that unrealistic that another desperate population might latch onto Bitcoin?

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#37
post #25

FTA: Taxation: How do governments collect taxes on transactions in Bitcoin? The answer is they don't, and they can't. Though many Bitcoin fans don't quite realize it, Bitcoin's radical transparency could in fact be a tax-collector's wet dream. Every public-key, balance, and transaction is public. A government that wants to coopt and efficiently tax Bitcoin could announce the following policy, based on the idea of 'ta…

> If you do, you can file a disclosure with 30 days, identifying the origin and nature of the transaction I smell a Fifth Amendment issue with doing this in the US.

The IRS already requires this for cash today.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#39
post #2

"The volume of transactions in Bitcoin is growing only slowly, relative to the massive increase in demand for the currency" The author states this without presenting data. He is wrong. In fact, data shows the opposite: - The exchange rate increase by 5x between February (low of $20) and March (high of $100) - BitPay alone recorded a merchant transaction volume increasing by 7.6x between February ($687k) and March ($5…

> BitPay alone recorded a merchant transaction volume increasing by 7.6x between February ($687k) and March ($5.2M): ... so total transactions increased by a lot more than 7.6x, maybe 10x, 20x, who knows)

your math is not good.

one provider having a large percent increase does not imply that the total market had a larger percentage increase. its entirely possible that BitPay gained a larger share of bitcoin transactions to achieve these numbers.

your argument is like saying: people using Google Chrome have increased by 1.2x over the past year, therefore, people using the internet must have increased by a lot more, maybe 5x or 10x, who knows.

Re: Bitcoin Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

#40
post #25

FTA: Taxation: How do governments collect taxes on transactions in Bitcoin? The answer is they don't, and they can't. Though many Bitcoin fans don't quite realize it, Bitcoin's radical transparency could in fact be a tax-collector's wet dream. Every public-key, balance, and transaction is public. A government that wants to coopt and efficiently tax Bitcoin could announce the following policy, based on the idea of 'ta…

What happens if I send dirty money to my enemy's registered address?
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