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I Bought a Bitcoin

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Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#101

Post by BrokenPipe »

Nursie wrote: post #84
etherael wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tyranny vs democracy wasn't my point, my point was that instead of accepting the negatives in the system, you rationalise them away by saying it's okay when it's your team behaving this way. History has a way of making this habit look foolish in the long run. If crypto currencies prevail, we will see if your fears or my hopes end up justified. I am just happy it's finally possible.

Again, I don't think these characteristics you list are unquestionably present or that they are unquestionably absolute negatives. From my perspective you use emotionally loaded language to try and paint a picture that fits in with your worldview. It's not 'my team vs your team'. It's that I genuinely don't see cooperative government or managed currencies as evil (quite the opposite), and you do.

I don't this his language was emotional at all. I don't want my money to be spent in certain ways. I like voluntarism and of course I would try to improve the situation around my area instead of financing war, prisons and luxury for the corrupted.

Things are not going ok.

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#102

Post by Nursie »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #101
Nursie wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I don't think these characteristics you list are unquestionably present or that they are unquestionably absolute negatives. From my perspective you use emotionally loaded language to try and paint a picture that fits in with your worldview. It's not 'my team vs your team'. It's that I genuinely don't see cooperative government or managed currencies as evil (quite the opposite), and you do.

I don't this his language was emotional at all. I don't want my money to be spent in certain ways. I like voluntarism and of course I would try to improve the situation around my area instead of financing war, prisons and luxury for the corrupted. Things are not going ok.

violent, parasitic, corrupt, extortionate, coercion, organised crime ring... these aren't emotionally loaded terms to you?

Again, different people have different attitudes. I'm not saying his (or your) view of the world is invalid. I'm saying that acting like it is the only possible rational or objective view on the world, and using heavily loaded words and a lot of absolute pronouncements, is a shortcoming I've seen in many internet libertarians.

--edit-- along with an assumption that anyone disagreeing with them just doesn't understand the arguments (I do), or is being wilfully ignorant (I'm not)

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#103

Post by etherael »

Nursie wrote: post #102
BrokenPipe wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't this his language was emotional at all. I don't want my money to be spent in certain ways. I like voluntarism and of course I would try to improve the situation around my area instead of financing war, prisons and luxury for the corrupted. Things are not going ok.

violent, parasitic, corrupt, extortionate, coercion, organised crime ring... these aren't emotionally loaded terms to you? Again, different people have different attitudes. I'm not saying his (or your) view of the world is invalid. I'm saying that acting like it is the only possible rational or objective view on the world, and using heavily loaded words and a lot of absolute pronouncements, is a shortcoming I've seen…

You keep pretending that those words don't actually apply, even though when I nailed you down on the definitions, you acknowledged it, you just said it was OK because the behaviour is acceptable when it's your team that's doing it.

If that excuse works for you, that's fine, but it doesn't negate the fact that the labels still accurately apply, you've just tried to justify them.

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#104

Post by Nursie »

etherael wrote: post #103
Nursie wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

violent, parasitic, corrupt, extortionate, coercion, organised crime ring... these aren't emotionally loaded terms to you? Again, different people have different attitudes. I'm not saying his (or your) view of the world is invalid. I'm saying that acting like it is the only possible rational or objective view on the world, and using heavily loaded words and a lot of absolute pronouncements, is a shortcoming I've seen…

You keep pretending that those words don't actually apply, even though when I nailed you down on the definitions, you acknowledged it, you just said it was OK because the behaviour is acceptable when it's your team that's doing it. If that excuse works for you, that's fine, but it doesn't negate the fact that the labels still accurately apply, you've just tried to justify them.

Oh for god's sake. No I didn't. Read the thread back. I do not agree that tax and extortion are equivalent, neither do I agree that government is by nature parasitic, nor that its aims are necessarily expansionist. These are emotionally coloured labels and presume that your worldview is absolutely correct.

I do agree (and said as much) that we delegate the use of violence to our representatives, but I'd quite like to know how libertarians would enforce property rights without violence, and why that's just AOK but not allowed for any other right we grant ourselves. This is where you're just as guilty of allowing 'your team' to get away with something.

--edit-- anyway, I'm done here, I'm pretty sure we've demonstrated that you're intolerant of other worldviews

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#105

Post by etherael »

Nursie wrote: post #104
etherael wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep pretending that those words don't actually apply, even though when I nailed you down on the definitions, you acknowledged it, you just said it was OK because the behaviour is acceptable when it's your team that's doing it. If that excuse works for you, that's fine, but it doesn't negate the fact that the labels still accurately apply, you've just tried to justify them.

Oh for god's sake. No I didn't. Read the thread back. I do not agree that tax and extortion are equivalent, neither do I agree that government is by nature parasitic, nor that its aims are necessarily expansionist. These are emotionally coloured labels and presume that your worldview is absolutely correct. I do agree (and said as much) that we delegate the use of violence to our representatives, but I'd quite like to…

Playing games with labels whilst refusing to accept the essential characteristics of the underlying subject doesn't make you correct.

It's not taxation, it's extortion.

It's not quantitative easing, it's debasement.

It's not enhanced interrogation, it's fucking torture.

It's not pre-emptive targeted killing, it's assassination.

It's not lobbying, it's bribery.

Putting your thugs in uniforms does not make them other than thugs. It doesn't matter which of these labels you accept, the description does not modify the reality. The map is not the territory.

I am sick to death of statist word game bullshit and yes, I will not silently take it while being told once again that war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.

Good day.

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#106

Post by reaclmbs »

michaelochurch wrote: post #3

I bought BitCoin and I liked it Hope my wallet don't mind it... It felt so wrong, it felt so right, let's transact tonight

Hey, I know you hate Bitcoin and think it's a pyramid scheme and everything, but isn't it good for smart people, and wouldn't its success create fricture among the elites (like you are always advocating)?

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#107

Post by michaelochurch »

reaclmbs wrote: post #106
michaelochurch wrote: post #3

I bought BitCoin and I liked it Hope my wallet don't mind it... It felt so wrong, it felt so right, let's transact tonight

Hey, I know you hate Bitcoin and think it's a pyramid scheme and everything, but isn't it good for smart people, and wouldn't its success create fricture among the elites (like you are always advocating)?

It's a simplification to say that I hate it. The work is impressive. If there were a Bitcoin course on Coursera on how the thing works, I'd sign up and take it.

I don't like the forced deflation. Deflation encourages hoarding and protects elites.

With Magic: the Gathering (Mt. Gox has me connecting the two) the hoarding behavior is actually good because it keeps unbalanced cards out of play. With BitCoin, it's going to lock a lot of the stuff up with hoarders. That could destroy it, insofar as if no one's using it, the market becomes illiquid, compromising value and possibly causing panic sales. The thing certainly isn't ready for prime time as a currency.

Also, there's a pretty easy (and legal) way one could destroy BitCoin. Right now, there are no reserve requirements, because it's not a real currency. Start a bank. Make sure it's a limited liability corporation, because this is a bit risky (bank runs). Let people deposit BTC and then lend them out. Now you've put a money multiplier on BTC, and without the reserve requirement, that's unbounded. Goodbye, scarcity. Goodbye, $147 BTC.

At that point, it's unclear that BitCoin has any value, until regulations come in regarding reserve requirements.

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#108

Post by dasmoth »

michaelochurch wrote: post #107
reaclmbs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I know you hate Bitcoin and think it's a pyramid scheme and everything, but isn't it good for smart people, and wouldn't its success create fricture among the elites (like you are always advocating)?

It's a simplification to say that I hate it. The work is impressive. If there were a Bitcoin course on Coursera on how the thing works, I'd sign up and take it. I don't like the forced deflation. Deflation encourages hoarding and protects elites. With Magic: the Gathering (Mt. Gox has me connecting the two) the hoarding behavior is actually good because it keeps unbalanced cards out of play. With BitCoin, it's going…

A fractional-reserve BitBank will only be noticeably inflationary if it can take a substantial amount in deposits, then find some people to borrow them. Since most of the "convenience" arguments for keeping traditional currencies in a bank rather than under your mattress don't seem to apply here, the only reason anyone's going to make a deposit is if the interest on offer appears to justify the risk. Without the backing of a government deposit insurance scheme, I reckon that translates to both a high interest rate AND probably some degree of transparency to convince depositors it's not a complete scam.

Could be an interesting project, but hard to see it causing a major shift in BTC values.

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#109

Post by InvisibleCities »

hackerboos wrote: post #42
guard-of-terra wrote: post #32

It's fun how hard it is for a layperson to buy a Bitcoin in USA. CCs do not work, you need bank transfer, your funds can be frozen, you have to wait in line, etc, etc. I live in Russia and it's amazingly easy. First, everyone here owns a virtual money account. It works like this: you put some money into it and then you can pay your bills (especially internet and mobile phone), small purchases over internet and you ca…

>It's fun how hard it is for a layperson to buy a Bitcoin in USA. CCs do not work Because it's too easy to claim fraud and have your CC provider initialise a charge-back. I don't know why you can't go to an ATM or a 7-Eleven and use your CC with your PIN to make a purchase. The CC company will know it's probably you because you entered your PIN and the merchant doesn't risk a charge-back.

>Because it's too easy to claim fraud and have your CC provider initialise a charge-back.

First, you can do this with any CC purchase, and I don't see why bitcoin merchants need any special protection against it. Why would a bitcoin merchant be more likely to get a chargeback than any other merchant? Second, this would definitely be credit card fraud, and easily detectable fraud at that; it's highly likely that anyone who attempted this would wind up in jail.

Re: I Bought a Bitcoin

#110

Post by T-hawk »

etherael wrote: post #28
31reasons wrote: post #16

Bitcoins are just a right to participate in a digital crypto economy. They don't have any value in themselves. Its like holding passes to a show in the big theater. If the show doesn't start you passes are worthless. If there is any meaningful possibility of a show in the theater, you might get lucky for holding those passes. The main problem is that people who will participate in the show also need to get the passes…

Serious question, why does the price of a single bitcoin matter when they're divisible to 8 decimal places? Beyond a psychological barrier people have thinking about the 1:100 thing, it's really irrelevant if your cup of coffee costs 10 bitcoins or 0.00001 bitcoins, especially if the calculation is made at the time of purchase relative to an underlying stable value like a basket of the largest fiat currencies in circ…

It doesn't matter, mathematically. Psychologically, it absolutely does. Bitcoin running to $150 is way more splashy and headline-grabby than $15. And at Bitcoin's beginning, it looked more respectable in gaining followers when 1 BTC was somewhere near $1 than if it were $0.01 and looking like some penny-stock scam.

Same goes for stock prices. Apple and Google have let the shares run to $400 and $700 instead of splitting to a more industry-standard two-digit number. Of coures the per-share price is meaningless in itself, it'd be the same if ten times as many shares existed at one-tenth the price. But it's a lot easier to grab eyeballs with a stock shooting through $400, $500, $600 benchmarks than a pedestrian $50.

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