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Thesis Hatement

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Re: Thesis Hatement

#41
post #37
post #23

Don't most of us think, "Duh?" to an article proclaiming that getting/being a PhD in Literature is hard and mostly pointless? Upper level education costs a lot of money and involves years of time, don't these people think about what they want to do with their lives? Don't they do at least cursory research into what that degree will mean to their careers? Every high school has some sort of career counselor. Colleges h…

Well, there is a PhD requirement wall for many cool jobs out there, including at Microsoft Research and alike.

A humanities PhD requirement?

Re: Thesis Hatement

#42
post #35
post #23

Don't most of us think, "Duh?" to an article proclaiming that getting/being a PhD in Literature is hard and mostly pointless? Upper level education costs a lot of money and involves years of time, don't these people think about what they want to do with their lives? Don't they do at least cursory research into what that degree will mean to their careers? Every high school has some sort of career counselor. Colleges h…

> Every high school has some sort of career counselor. Colleges have many of them. They typically won't tell a student "sure, you can go for a PhD, but it's a waste of time." Schools and colleges tend to be biased towards thinking more education is always better.

They may also get funding based on graduations. PhD students are also fuel for the research in universities, and possible future researchers themselves.

Re: Thesis Hatement

#43

She goes on about her hopeless job search, but she never mentioned where she got her degree (Department of German at the University of California-Irvine). I wonder if her perspective were different had she graduated from an Ivy.

"After four years of trying, I’ve finally gotten it through my thick head that I will not get a job—and if you go to graduate school, neither will you."

Clearly, her personal experience can be extrapolated to everyone everywhere looking for a tenure track literature professorship. If she can't do it, nobody else should bother trying.

I wouldn't have hired her either.

Re: Thesis Hatement

#44
post #2

To be fair, this post is about a literature Ph.D., not one in a field like Mathematics or Computer Science. Not that the job outlook is a lot rosier on that side, but it's an important distinction to be made.

It's actually a lot rosier on the CS side in my experience. I got my PhD from a middle-of-the-pack school (i.e. not CMU, MIT, etc) and received a tenure-track job offer (at a 4-year liberal-arts college) before I had defended. After working as a professor for a few years, I have decided to go back to industry, and have been besieged with job offers. My understanding is that hiring my replacement is turning out to be difficult because there aren't enough people with PhDs who want to be teaching-oriented professors.

Basically, right now, a CS PhD can find a tenure-track job if they are willing to broaden their search to include non-research-only professor jobs. Of course, this should not necessarily inform whether a person should get a PhD in CS, as it takes 4-6 (or more) years and who knows if this will still be true then.

Re: Thesis Hatement

#45
The point of life is not maximal profitability. Well, it is ok if your life is, but other people may have other viewpoints. Thankfully, the world is set up in such a way that I can easily derive a living from coding which I love to do. Are my contributions to humanity; optimized database queries, gui fixes, systems that my employer sell, etc more valuable than what a literature PhD does? Is it only the work that generates the most profits that is valuable?

If one adheres to the utilitarian philosophy, I think it is easy to see that there is a problem. If the goal is to maximize happiness, then it would clearly be better if people who love to read and discuss books can do that as much as possible instead of doing something that makes them unhappy. How would you solve the problem?

Re: Thesis Hatement

#46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Up until very recently (the most recent recession, perhaps), simply having a college degree was thought of as being a road to a comfortable middle class life. To this day career counselling focuses almost completely on interests and lifestyle and ignores salary. Unless a student has a mentor to guide them, it is very easy to go through college blistfully unaware of the realities that exist once you are in the job…

I don't agree with your assessment that this is a completely recent phenomenon. "Is a college degree enough?" was a pervasive question when I got out of undergrad in 1991 since we were in a recession. My placement center and many magazines had "What is this degree worth?" compilations. This same information has been available online for at least the last 10+ years. Ironically, I always thought of myself as being pret…

Sounds like you were a much better planner than most college students. I don't think that salary research is of much help for 18 year olds. It's hard to gauge what a good salary is at that age. This is where mentorship and parenting can be of great help. But we're still at a point where a minority of adults have college degrees so many parents believe sending college is the silver bullet to a good life.

Re: Thesis Hatement

#47
post #2

To be fair, this post is about a literature Ph.D., not one in a field like Mathematics or Computer Science. Not that the job outlook is a lot rosier on that side, but it's an important distinction to be made.

I think we should clarify that the research-job outlook is not rosy in CS. There are plenty of corporations that want to hire CS PhDs for non-research work. And there is always the entrepreneurial route (the smart VCs aren't going to hold the PhD against you).

Well, that's the point - if you get a computer science or physics or biology PhD, then it's likely to be useful also in a bunch of non-research industry jobs.

If you get a literature or anthropology PhD - then outside of teaching it's useful mainly as a hobby.

Re: Thesis Hatement

#48

She goes on about her hopeless job search, but she never mentioned where she got her degree (Department of German at the University of California-Irvine). I wonder if her perspective were different had she graduated from an Ivy.

Well, statistically speaking, most people don't graduate from Ivy, so if you're making a general point to the whole American audience you can assume that they're aiming for a non-Ivy school.

Re: Thesis Hatement

#49
This is the perfect article to be submitted to HN. Because it brings out the worst in HN. The saturated, self-congratulatory, better-than-thou crowd that is smug about their income, prospects and worth. Many here already believe that everything that isn't programming or engineering is virtually worthless and should be killed. This reinforces them.

But credit where credit is due: Academia, especially in the humanities, is everything but cosy. There is little money in it, there are few available positions.

However, being a slight bit along the same way as the author, I can only relay what I see around me every day. From the group of PhD students around me, how many hold any illusions as to what academia means? None that I have met. Out of a group of ~10 people, some almost finished, some at the beginning (this is not in the US, so everyone has done a masters or equivalent before), nobody wants to become a professor. One wants to become (and judging by how she's doing, she will be) a curator, I see people interested in broadcasting, teaching (as in: school), publishing and politics. It might be different in the US, I do not know. But here, it is painfully obvious to everyone I meet as to what the chances are to land a faculty position.

Do I care? To a degree (no pun intended). Would I like to go into academia? Yes. Do I know what that means? Yes. I write quickly, I enjoy a wide range of topics, I don't mind giving talks etc. I am flexible. Would I have to move if I wanted to go down that route? Yes. Does that bother me? No, it really doesn't. I will give it its fair shot, I will finish the PhD, and I will have a look around for post-doc positions. If it doesn't work? Fair enough, publishing or IT or something else it is.

I am not terribly bothered about money, not because I am somehow well off, but because I do not particularly care. I don't need that much to be happy. As long as I will be able to buy books and music here and there, go out every now and then and have a somewhat nice flat somewhere, I will be fine. I would like to be able to have dog, though.

I don't understand the vitriol on HN, I really don't. Everytime the humanities come up, there are the same type of comments, comparing software development entry salaries to professors, talking about student debt etc. Many here seem to be incapable (or unwilling) to even acknowledge that their own set of values is not universal, that not everybody wants to make it or even cares about making it.

In many ways, I qualify for things here, I dabble in programming, I use LaTeX/Emacs/org-mode for all my work, I use Linux permanently, write my own shell-scripts, report bugs etc. That does not mean I would necessarily like to be a programmer. HN is obsessed with making money and in doing so forgets that not everyone shares the same worldview.

I'm sure I will be fine. I do not have any student debt, I will start doing whatever it is I will be doing with a clean slate, I owe no money and I see my experiences as everything but lost time. I love what I am doing, and It would be a pity to give it up. If I have to, I will, but until then, I'll see where it'll take me.

P.S.: I'm doing German now (though I have done other European languages before). Just like the original author. Her choice of topic probably didn't help her overall feelings about her position, either. Kafka is one of those authors about whom so much has been done that it is hard to approach him without a huge amount of preconceptions.

e: syntax

Re: Thesis Hatement

#50
post #23

Don't most of us think, "Duh?" to an article proclaiming that getting/being a PhD in Literature is hard and mostly pointless? Upper level education costs a lot of money and involves years of time, don't these people think about what they want to do with their lives? Don't they do at least cursory research into what that degree will mean to their careers? Every high school has some sort of career counselor. Colleges h…

It is not pointless. It is just not lucrative. There is certainly plenty to be fixed in the world of higher education, but if we solely follow the money we run the risk of turning our great universities into nothing more than 21st century trade schools.
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