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Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

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Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#21

Post by ChuckMcM »

VanL wrote: post #17
ChuckMcM wrote: post #6

Interesting, patent trolls have reached the level of public relations foil. I think its great that Rackspace is suing these guys but I found the press release made me feel like I do when somebody is trying to impress me with all of the charities they've donated money to. Mutual forbearance agreement? Seriously? Why not sue them right then and there when they foisted that bit of "strategy" on you and charged them with…

We couldn't sue because we didn't know what we would sue on. They wouldn't even tell us the patent numbers - so we didn't have the knowledge necessary to even file a complaint. As for suing because of the forbearance agreement, they try to write these things so they are just on the side of the line, and it is really hard to make a RICO suit stick (see Cisco and Innovatio). We, of course, think that it is just BS. Now…

Excellent reference, thanks Van. This comment from the judge in the WSJ coverage[1] of Cisco ""It is enough for now to determine that Innovatio at least has a plausible argument that its infringement claims are still viable," wrote Judge Holderman. The "licensing campaign is therefore not a sham," he said." So did Innovatio include the patent numbers? I have read in other cases that legal test for extortion was "credible but not actionable" threat of exposure. (Crosby vs Upshaw as an example, she wouldn't provide paternity data)

FWIW I've added you to the list of technology companies being harmed by patent extortion (I try to keep my congressional representatives informed in order to disallow them the excuse that they had no idea how bad the problem is)

[1] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732490600457828...

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#22

Post by at-fates-hands »

I'm curious why more smaller and medium sized businesses haven't banded together to form some kind of larger entity to combat these trolls.

There's security in numbers. If I was a patent troll and knew if I was going to sue a company like RackSpace and knew they had 25-50 companies standing behind them with a large pool of legal and financial resources, I'd be more apt to try and find an easier target.

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#23

Post by mcherm »

codesuela wrote: post #2

It is awesome to see a company put their money where their mouth is, the good will with the dev community they are building with this will easily exceed the costs of fighting a troll in court.

This builds up LOTS of good will with me. But still, I'm not sure you are right. The cost of fighting a troll in court can be shockingly large. If it were worth MORE in public relations than it cost in legal fees then it would obviously be an investment they should make, just to become more profitable. I doubt that... I think it is worth a lot in public relations, but less than the same amount of cash would buy in advertising. Nevertheless, it is worth it for two reasons: (1) because it scares patent trolls off of Rackspace in the future, and (2) because it's good for the world, even if it isn't profitable. Sometimes you just have to do things that aren't profitable.

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#24

Post by mcherm »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #22

I'm curious why more smaller and medium sized businesses haven't banded together to form some kind of larger entity to combat these trolls. There's security in numbers. If I was a patent troll and knew if I was going to sue a company like RackSpace and knew they had 25-50 companies standing behind them with a large pool of legal and financial resources, I'd be more apt to try and find an easier target.

> why more smaller and medium sized businesses haven't banded together to form some kind of larger entity to combat these trolls

Well, one reason is that it may be illegal. We have antitrust laws that prohibit companies that make up a large percentage of an industry from coordinating in certain ways... this is an edge case but might be a problem.

But the main reason is just that it is prohibitively expensive. It's really, really expensive to fight a patent troll, and if you win then they turn out to be a shell company with no assets so you can't be reimbursed for your costs (and probably wouldn't be eligible for that anyway in the US). So for small companies, flying under the radar and hoping they won't notice you seems to be the way to go.

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#25

Post by ROFISH »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #20

Whenever I see several different groups behaving in a manner I find obnoxious, I wonder incentives encourage this kind of behavior, and how those incentives might be reduced. One such way is countersuit, which Rackspace is doing. If everyone (successfully) countersued, the incentive to be a patent troll would diminish. There might be other ways. Is there some common property patent trolls depend on that might be pena…

I always wondered what would happen if a neutral party (EFF?) got a lot of money to essentially defend and countersue all patent troll claims, regardless of if they'd win or not. Hopefully this "scorched earth" plan would get the notice of judges and lawmakers to change the law.

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#26

Post by notahacker »

rayiner wrote: post #4

> In actuality, it is a bit more complicated. Our dealings with this particular troll reach back to December 2010 when IP Navigation Group (IP Nav), as agent for a supposedly secret patent owner, now known as Parallel Iron, accused Rackspace of patent infringement. IP Nav told us that they could not divulge the details of their infringement claims – not even the patent numbers or the patent owner – unless we entered…

I can't understand why anyone would sign away their right to counter-sue in order to obtain information on something which can't possibly damage them until the information is disclosed anyway (IANAL)

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#27

Post by aroman »

rayiner wrote: post #4

> In actuality, it is a bit more complicated. Our dealings with this particular troll reach back to December 2010 when IP Navigation Group (IP Nav), as agent for a supposedly secret patent owner, now known as Parallel Iron, accused Rackspace of patent infringement. IP Nav told us that they could not divulge the details of their infringement claims – not even the patent numbers or the patent owner – unless we entered…

Is there even a reasonable situation where a one-sided "forbearance agreement" is ever appropriate? Or even remotely fair? That seems like basically writing up a contract that says "By signing this you owe me $100" but entrenching and obfuscating it in 75 pages of legalese.

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#28

Post by hkmurakami »

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #20

Whenever I see several different groups behaving in a manner I find obnoxious, I wonder incentives encourage this kind of behavior, and how those incentives might be reduced. One such way is countersuit, which Rackspace is doing. If everyone (successfully) countersued, the incentive to be a patent troll would diminish. There might be other ways. Is there some common property patent trolls depend on that might be pena…

>One such way is countersuit, which Rackspace is doing. If everyone (successfully) countersued, the incentive to be a patent troll would diminish.

I was under the impression that these patent troll shell companies are set up so that they have virtually no assets under them. Does countersuing even hurt these shell companies significantly? The only thing I can see countersuits costing patent trolls is time in court (maybe that costs the parent of the shell company money if they operate on a scale where they're hiring lawyers to go sue companies?)

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#29

Post by hkmurakami »

aroman wrote: post #27
rayiner wrote: post #4

> In actuality, it is a bit more complicated. Our dealings with this particular troll reach back to December 2010 when IP Navigation Group (IP Nav), as agent for a supposedly secret patent owner, now known as Parallel Iron, accused Rackspace of patent infringement. IP Nav told us that they could not divulge the details of their infringement claims – not even the patent numbers or the patent owner – unless we entered…

Is there even a reasonable situation where a one-sided "forbearance agreement" is ever appropriate? Or even remotely fair? That seems like basically writing up a contract that says "By signing this you owe me $100" but entrenching and obfuscating it in 75 pages of legalese.

An acquaintance told me a story where a neighbour in his condominium complex (who lived directly under him) asked for a right of first refusal for nothing in return if/when she eventually put her unit on the market...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_first_refusal

Re: Why Rackspace Is Suing The Most Notorious Patent Troll In America

#30

Post by TallGuyShort »

hkmurakami wrote: post #28
kevinalexbrown wrote: post #20

Whenever I see several different groups behaving in a manner I find obnoxious, I wonder incentives encourage this kind of behavior, and how those incentives might be reduced. One such way is countersuit, which Rackspace is doing. If everyone (successfully) countersued, the incentive to be a patent troll would diminish. There might be other ways. Is there some common property patent trolls depend on that might be pena…

>One such way is countersuit, which Rackspace is doing. If everyone (successfully) countersued, the incentive to be a patent troll would diminish. I was under the impression that these patent troll shell companies are set up so that they have virtually no assets under them. Does countersuing even hurt these shell companies significantly? The only thing I can see countersuits costing patent trolls is time in court (ma…

Rackspace is more focussed on having the patents declared invalid than hurting the troll any other way. Eventually you'd run out of patents that are even remotely defensible, because they would have to have been filed long before HDFS became as ubiquitous as it is.
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