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A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

the-magazine.org

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Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#251
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are, alas, social disadvantages in the United States from having nonstandard speech patterns" This is, of course, true not only in the US but in many other countries and often popularized in plays, movies, etc., Eliza Doolittle. In German, where people are quite possessive of their regional dialects, Bayerisch speakers are sometimes derided. And it's not just nonstandard speech patterns, either. Unique names t…

"We find, however, no negative relationship between having a distinctively Black name and later life outcomes after controlling for a child's circumstances at birth."

But it's somewhat misleading. Do rich black people give their children distinctively Black names? I actually looked up names that richest AA gave their kids:

Michael Jordan - Marcus, Jeffrey, Jasmine

Byonce - Blue Ivy Carter

Sean Combs - Justin, Christian, Chance, Jessie, D'Lila

Robert Johnson - Paige & Brett

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#252
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but this is not the opinion of, among many notable others, the Oakland school board since 1996." Yes - and they've been considered a joke because of it since 1996. The decision was "derided and criticized, most notably by Jesse Jackson and Kweisi Mfume who regarded it as an attempt to teach slang to children". So my opinion is shared by many prominent black leaders.

So your answer to my entreaty is "no", then?

Yep :)

There is a very good essay on the topic by David Foster Wallace that someone linked to in the comments. I was pleasantly surprised that he makes exactly the same points as myself (albeit much more eloquently). Do check it out.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#253
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your answer to my entreaty is "no", then?

Yep :) There is a very good essay on the topic by David Foster Wallace that someone linked to in the comments. I was pleasantly surprised that he makes exactly the same points as myself (albeit much more eloquently). Do check it out.

I... am really confused. AFAICT there is only one DFW essay linked in these comments, and it seems to say basically what I, others here, and the linguistic consensus is saying: That there is a dialect of English used in the great majority of formal English speech and writing which is not spoken natively by many intelligent English speakers, and that the best way to deal with this is to acknowledge that their dialect is valid and appropriate when spoken with peers while also instructing them in the rules of SAE that will be necessary for them to interface effectively with formal society. There are differences in that DFW is talking about college-age writers who have to more or less be told to suck it up and learn it the hard way, while young schoolchildren can be taught much more effectively by early immersion, but the general thrust is much the same.

What are you reading in that? I'm legitimately, deeply baffled.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#254
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If you are trying to teach children "correct" grammar rules that they will go home and unlearn because their peers speak a different grammar, you are getting teaching very wrong and you should do it differently. As has been reiterated exhaustively in these comments, that does not mean you do not teach them SAE. It means you teach it so they actually learn it. Don't take this the wrong way, but highlighting "your…

Frankly, this post makes you look really ignorant of the actual experiences of disadvantaged people in America (of which I am one, by the way). Maybe you should check your assumption privilege. I like to swear a lot when I'm at home, but that doesn't mean it's proper language for when I'm in the workplace. Why can't my bosses stop oppressing me with their managerial privilege!? :( :( But by all means, continue the co…

O...kay? I'm not sure how you're reading my rather lay summary of the state of modern linguistics as histrionics, but maybe that's just a dialectal thing. I was kind of hoping you would go ahead and check out the Wiki articles[0], but I guess I'm glad you're even bothering to read my comments.

[0] If this is still on the table, I'd also like to add "ad hominem" to the list. To quote The Princess Bride, "You have six fingers on your right hand. Someone was looking for you."

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think examples of any combination of "has army/not", "is language/dialect". Mutual intelligibility doesn't even matter either way. has army, is dialect: Schweizerdeutch, American English, Brazilian Portuguese has army, is language: Norwegian (v. Danish) no army, is language: Yiddish, Afrikaans no army, is dialect: Frisian

Good examples, but "Afrikaans has no army" is debatable and IMHO misleading. It doesn't share an army with Dutch. And in the formative period from the Boer wars (1880, 1899) to 1994 I would say that it did have an army in absolute terms.

I had thought that English was more dominant in South Africa than Afrikaans, but I guess it's actually the other way around.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#256
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> idées reçues [snip] anti-homeopathy No, this doesn't fit: Being opposed to homeopathy isn't an "automatic thought or platitude" and it certainly isn't "self-contradictory". It's an acknowledgement of basic science. Grouping it in with the kinds of thoughts "idées reçues" was intended to refer to makes the term entirely meaningless. And, since we're talking about language, this is entirely on-topic. ;)

You proved my point: needing to counter homeopathy every single time it (or something vaguely similar, such as anti-vax--and yes, that is bait) is mentioned off-hand is automatic thought. I didn't bring up homeopathy with arguments for or against, I brought it up as an example of what happens to discussions, I discouraged people from discussing the merits of it, yet you still do. A good translation of "idées reçues"…

> needing to counter homeopathy every single time

You're misunderstanding me: I'm not countering homeopathy, I'm countering your complete misunderstanding of the fancy French phrase you insist on throwing around.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good examples, but "Afrikaans has no army" is debatable and IMHO misleading. It doesn't share an army with Dutch. And in the formative period from the Boer wars (1880, 1899) to 1994 I would say that it did have an army in absolute terms.

I had thought that English was more dominant in South Africa than Afrikaans, but I guess it's actually the other way around.

As usage of the two languages go, I put it nearer 50%-50% (with slightly more Afrikaans).

As political power went until 1994, all heads of state and of the army (and as far as I remember, all holders of other top positions) were Afrikaners.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#258
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep :) There is a very good essay on the topic by David Foster Wallace that someone linked to in the comments. I was pleasantly surprised that he makes exactly the same points as myself (albeit much more eloquently). Do check it out.

I... am really confused. AFAICT there is only one DFW essay linked in these comments, and it seems to say basically what I, others here, and the linguistic consensus is saying: That there is a dialect of English used in the great majority of formal English speech and writing which is not spoken natively by many intelligent English speakers, and that the best way to deal with this is to acknowledge that their dialect…

Exactly - I believe that school kids should also suck it up and learn to speak properly (I will not shy away from this nomenclature) early, rather than wait for college (and what about the majority who don't make it there?) where an English professor will give them this speech.

My impression of your viewpoint is that kids should be taught in AAVE and have a separate Standard English class to learn how 'white folks speak'.

That said - I have nothing against same kids using AAVE at home and with their friends if they prefer - as long as they realize that knowing SE is instrumental to their success in life.

I also have two niggling points to make: 1) Standard English is not a dialect. That's just a matter of definition. 2) I'd also say that 100% of formal English speech and writing is using it. As far as I can tell, anytime a dialect is used in a book (Huck Finn, William Faulkner) - it's done to demonstrate a character who speaks a particular way. Do you know works written in a dialect where it's not done to this purpose?

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#259
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I... am really confused. AFAICT there is only one DFW essay linked in these comments, and it seems to say basically what I, others here, and the linguistic consensus is saying: That there is a dialect of English used in the great majority of formal English speech and writing which is not spoken natively by many intelligent English speakers, and that the best way to deal with this is to acknowledge that their dialect…

Exactly - I believe that school kids should also suck it up and learn to speak properly (I will not shy away from this nomenclature) early, rather than wait for college (and what about the majority who don't make it there?) where an English professor will give them this speech. My impression of your viewpoint is that kids should be taught in AAVE and have a separate Standard English class to learn how 'white folks sp…

> speak properly (I will not shy away from this nomenclature)

I just wish you'd reconsider this. It seems you acknowledge that if we could magically swap AAVE and ASE completely, such that news anchors talk about how Obama ain't got no sense and young black children go home crying because they were marked down for using "whom" as an object, nothing else would change; What you call proper English would be the despised language of the underclass and the well-to-do would look down on them every time they ignorantly used a single negative in a phrase that requires the full construction.

And if you do acknowledge this, can you see how the classification of English dialects into "proper" and "improper" groups, which could more rightly be labeled "potent" and "impotent", amounts to massive institutionalized racism (for ethnolects) and classism (for sociolects)?

Or to put it in more personal terms, could you see yourself recognizing that the privileged in our society will look down on the underprivileged for speaking their native language correctly while simultaneously making some effort to be less of one of those people yourself?

> My impression of your viewpoint is that kids should be taught in AAVE and have a separate Standard English class to learn how 'white folks speak'.

Is that your impression of how ESL is employed for young native Spanish speakers? It is not. Once or if a person is fluent enough in the second language that the classes designed for native speakers can be productive, they are included in those classes and graded accordingly (perhaps with auxiliary tutoring if necessary). What is your argument for forcing them into those classes before that point, or without that auxiliary tutoring?

> 1) Standard English is not a dialect. That's just a matter of definition.

Whose definition are you using? This is the first line from Wikipedia: "Standard English (often shortened to S.E. within linguistic circles) refers to whatever form of the English language is accepted as a national norm in an Anglophone country." That is, by definition, a dialect. (Or, generically, a group of dialects.) Accordingly:

> 2) I'd also say that 100% of formal English speech and writing is using it.

And yet British news is written in British English and Australian news in Australian English and so on. The differences between these Englishes are relatively minor, apparently so minor that you do not consider them distinct dialects -- and perhaps that's my fault for not using the more PC term "variety" -- but they assuredly are.

Or do you mean to say that, since "standard" refers to the dialect used in formal speech in a country, the language of formal speech is by definition "standard"? To that I would say, 1) Duh, and, 2) So?

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#260
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your righteous indignation does not really contribute much. There are billions of people that speak bad English every day. That alone doesn't make their English good. Just saying "a lot of people do it" is not a validation of anything. Every person with native Russian language, at least until they lived in English-speaking country for many years, reliably skips articles and reliably misuses complex tenses, because th…

Your comparison of second language speakers to native speakers of AAVE continues to be insulting and wrong. I'm not sure what you mean by "superior" here. There's an English language with its grammar rules, and there are common mistakes or detachments from widespread usage patterns which people make in English. This is wrong. There is not 'an English language'. There is Standard American English, Scouse, Glaswegian,…

>>>> This is wrong. There is not 'an English language'

Of course there isn't. If you are asked "do you speak English?", you have no idea what they are talking about. If you come into a bookstore and see a shelf named "Books in English", you ask the seller to point out to you which books are in Glaswegian, when one in Jamaican English, which ones are in AAVE, which ones are in Scouse... No way there's something that everybody actually calls "English". Got it.

>>>> As I keep explaining, this article does not advocate AAVE speakers should not be taught SAE

I am at loss why you keep explaining something that nobody doubted anyway. Teaching standard English does not preclude juicy grants for studying AAVE and "recognizing it" and "teaching better". I'd be happy to know how exactly better would it be? The article is pretty scarce on the details except for one method that basically eliminates the word "wrong" from the teacher's vocabulary and instead instructs the student that "we do it this way". I am not sure why this would be any different, but for this alone there's no need to even have a concept of AAVE as it seems...

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