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Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

nytimes.com

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Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#21

Post by gwenhwyfaer »

rrival wrote: post #20
paul wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of shit, I am never reading again." -- police officer Barbrady, South Park (1998) I made it about 1/3 of the way into The Fountainhead but got bored and lost interest. Self-interest is ok, but I'm not going to make i…

Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright or that by tirelessly adhering to existing architectural principles you're continuing to develop derivative crap, you might see what he did as a bit more revolutionary and appreciate what her message was a bit more. I couldn't put it down, but then, I don't really watch South Park.

> Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright

No it isn't. Both Frank Lloyd Wright and Ayn Rand explicitly refuted such a claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright#Cultural_Ref...

In any case, Lloyd Wright's buildings might well have pushed the envelope on art, but they've been criticised on technical grounds.

And the idea that "if you don't do anything you're told not to you'll never do anything new" really doesn't need an 800-page exposition by someone who demonstrates a complete lack of empathy for humans, a penchant for rape, and no particular talent as a writer.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#22

Post by robg »

paul wrote: post #13
rrival wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are magnificent. To suggest that anyone -not- read them (for the sake of brevity, no less) is to suggest a reader not experience great, life-changing literature. Her objectivist philosophy may be a bit overt in the latter, but never for a second could I sleep well knowing I'd proposed that others -skip- these books.

"Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of shit, I am never reading again." -- police officer Barbrady, South Park (1998) I made it about 1/3 of the way into The Fountainhead but got bored and lost interest. Self-interest is ok, but I'm not going to make i…

Not a huge Rand fan but I just thought it was an interesting take on why business folks have adopted her.

The philosophy works well with architecture because of "classical" limitations and the power of the individual to evoke change in the modern world. That's a message that any startupper needs even as you're certainly right - we need to iterate with customers in mind. But then, that's our sector. Imagine those crazy businesses where the innovator knew that, if he asked, people wanted faster horses.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#23

Post by gwenhwyfaer »

SwellJoe wrote: post #6

All the Ayn Rand you'll ever need is in Anthem. Much shorter than Atlas Shrugged, and better literature to boot. I'm a long-time fan, after finding one of her books at a flea market when I was a kid (bought it coincidentally at the same time as Walden Two, a socialist manifesto by B.F. Skinner...one was delightfully rational and rang true while the other's greatest feat of intellectual brilliance was the use of glass…

I'd have to nominate 'We, The Living' as the best thing she ever wrote, on the grounds of both authenticity and quality. Everything after that was solipsistic pulp polemic, but I do retain a soft spot for WTL. But 'Anthem' was ripped off from 'We' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_%28novel%29) and can't hold a candle to either 'Brave New World' before or '1984' after; its only use is the same as that of 'The Communist Manifesto' (the two works are even as humourless as each other).

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#24

Post by gwenhwyfaer »

uuilly wrote: post #14
rms wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you'll have a tough time coming up with a definition of "advancement of human civilization" that everyone can agree on No, I think it's easy, we've got a great way to measure progress. We call it "power." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Where does Brittany Spears fit in the Kardashev Scale? There a millions of people that think she is more important than energy consumption. Should we put them all in the gas chamber? Even if we let them live, Kardashev, brilliant though he may be, has hardly come up w/ a universal set of values that everyone is, should, or will eventually strive for. The best you can do is to absorb his ideals, spread his word and cr…

> Where does Brittany Spears fit in the Kardashev Scale? There a millions of people that think she is more important than energy consumption. Should we put them all in the gas chamber?

Only if we can use them as fuel.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#25

Post by gwenhwyfaer »

davidw wrote: post #5
gibsonf1 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or could it be, in being able to essentialize a message in elevator-pitch fashion, that a person actually really knows what they're talking about?

Would that John Galt had been able to deliver an elevator pitch, rather than a 90 page rant:-)

Would that Ayn Rand had gone into banking rather than writing...

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#26

Post by gwenhwyfaer »

rms wrote: post #19
jsmcgd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a conflict of interest.

OK, there isn't one. I lost here, I forgot that Objectivism ends up encompassing any rational belief so it's hard to argue against it.

Well, it doesn't. The exact rational beliefs that Objectivism encompasses were very carefully laid out by Rand before her death, and all other opinions, beliefs or perspectives were explicitly denounced as irrational. It's hard to take anything seriously that on the one hand says "reject irrationality, think for yourself, reach your own conclusion!" and on the other hand says "but the only way you'll know, and we'll accept, that you're being rational is that you'll reach these conclusions here".

And of course, her primary error is that humans are rational beings. We're not. We're evolved animals, and one of the things we've evolved is the ability to rationalise behaviours that stem from thoroughly irrational sources. That a whole bunch of bright self-made and aspiring individualists who prefer doing to theorising have a lot of time for someone who essentially gave them a way to feel just great about both means and ends which have caused pain to other people+ is hardly surprising; but it's correlation, not cause. Indeed, I suspect that the people who readily accept Rand would basically have thought and acted that way anyway, but would have found an alternative, less satisfying, justification for doing so (for example, the economical justification of the Austrians). The importance of Rand to such people is the moral justification she crafted for them.

+ Note, I'm not passing moral judgement here; what makes us feel guilty about our actions is the combination of empathy with knowledge of the pain we have caused someone else - but we can alleviate that guilt if we can convince ourselves it's for a greater good; and there is no greater good than to have done what is morally right.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#27

Post by [deleted] »

gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #21
rrival wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright or that by tirelessly adhering to existing architectural principles you're continuing to develop derivative crap, you might see what he did as a bit more revolutionary and appreciate what her message was a bit more. I couldn't put it down, but then, I don't really watch South Park.

> Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright No it isn't. Both Frank Lloyd Wright and Ayn Rand explicitly refuted such a claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright#Cultural_Ref... In any case, Lloyd Wright's buildings might well have pushed the envelope on art, but they've been criticised on technical grounds. And the idea that "if you don't do anything you'…

[deleted]

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#28

Post by wyday »

gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #21
rrival wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright or that by tirelessly adhering to existing architectural principles you're continuing to develop derivative crap, you might see what he did as a bit more revolutionary and appreciate what her message was a bit more. I couldn't put it down, but then, I don't really watch South Park.

> Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright No it isn't. Both Frank Lloyd Wright and Ayn Rand explicitly refuted such a claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright#Cultural_Ref... In any case, Lloyd Wright's buildings might well have pushed the envelope on art, but they've been criticised on technical grounds. And the idea that "if you don't do anything you'…

> 800-page exposition by someone who demonstrates ..., a penchant for rape, ...

The relationships between her characters are usually sadomasochistic, not sexual abuse. But even when it does appear it takes up barely ten pages in her novels.

> ... and no particular talent as a writer.

Ironically contrary to her message, the popularity of her books suggests otherwise.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#29

Post by gwenhwyfaer »

wyday wrote: post #28
gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright No it isn't. Both Frank Lloyd Wright and Ayn Rand explicitly refuted such a claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright#Cultural_Ref... In any case, Lloyd Wright's buildings might well have pushed the envelope on art, but they've been criticised on technical grounds. And the idea that "if you don't do anything you'…

> 800-page exposition by someone who demonstrates ..., a penchant for rape, ... The relationships between her characters are usually sadomasochistic, not sexual abuse. But even when it does appear it takes up barely ten pages in her novels. > ... and no particular talent as a writer. Ironically contrary to her message, the popularity of her books suggests otherwise.

Yes, but Jeffrey Archer and Jackie Collins are popular.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#30

Post by wyday »

gwenhwyfaer wrote: post #29
wyday wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 800-page exposition by someone who demonstrates ..., a penchant for rape, ... The relationships between her characters are usually sadomasochistic, not sexual abuse. But even when it does appear it takes up barely ten pages in her novels. > ... and no particular talent as a writer. Ironically contrary to her message, the popularity of her books suggests otherwise.

Yes, but Jeffrey Archer and Jackie Collins are popular .

OK. And because of this Rand isn't?
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