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A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

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Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#121

Post by derleth »

Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #70
blocking_io wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article points out, if it were 'bad English', the rules of AAVE would not be consistently applied. However, speakers know how to use the rules and they always apply them. Saying that 'calling it a language' is bad is truly ignorant. As far as linguists are concerned, it is a language. If you say otherwise, you are simply wrong. There is nothing inherently better about the English you speak compared to their En…

I don't think there are any rules to "AAVE" either, one speaker of this dialect? creole? language? or whatever we're calling it, would not be able to point out grammatical errors in the speech of another. I think the following would all be considered valid AAVE: I ain’t tell nobody nothing about no sushi. or I didn’t tell nobody nothing about no sushi. or I didn’t tell nobody about no sushi. or I didn’t tell nobody a…

> I don't think there are any rules to "AAVE" either

Well, then you're wrong on a simple, factual level. It's like you not thinking the atomic number of oxygen is eight: It is, and it will be, regardless of what the ignorant think.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#122

Post by derleth »

eridius wrote: post #31
jinushaun wrote: post #11

I think ebonics if a load of crock, but as an aficionado of linguistics, I don't understand the resistance to double negatives in "proper" English. The "ain't got none" construct exists in many other languages. The double negative reinforces each other, instead of canceling each other out.

Yes, the double-negative construct exists in other languages. It doesn't exist in English. You may as well be asking why people insist other people use English words instead of German words when talking to them.

> Yes, the double-negative construct exists in other languages. It doesn't exist in English.

Are you insisting Shakespeare didn't speak English?

> I never was nor never will be.

-- Richard III

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/02/grammar-myths-3/

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#123

Post by SilentStump »

mark-r wrote: post #111
tokenadult wrote: post #53

Thanks for the submission. This is an interesting article about applied linguistics for primary education in the United States. Approximately around 1900, the United States reached its peak period of receiving immigrants who were not English-speaking when they arrived. Today, nearly all Americans speak one variety or another of English, even though only about one-fourth of the United States population consists of per…

The article makes it very clear - AAVE is superficially the same as General American English so neither the teachers or the students realize that that the kids need to speak two different languages. Instead you have the teachers insisting that there's only one language and they're using it incorrectly. That's quite a bit different from the German and Norwegian your grandparents had to deal with.

I really like the distinction between two languages and a single language. A lot of the kids I've worked with were able to switch from the way they talk with friends, AAVE, to how they talked with teachers and staff similarly how a student might switch from using spanish and english. Pronunciation changes, words change, etc.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#124

Post by derleth »

mattsfrey wrote: post #37

I think that it isn't well regarded as a language because at root it is simply an adaption of another language (English). There's differing vernaculars anywhere you go, depending on the culture and the demographic. There's no use in regarding them each individually as "languages", they are termed correctly as just being vernaculars. When I started working at a factory when I was 18, I was suddenly bombarded with blue…

> I think that it isn't well regarded as a language because at root it is simply an adaption of another language (English).

As Italian is simply an adaption of Latin. So, was Dante writing bad Latin or good Florentine?

> I certainly wouldn't advocate that becoming a nationally recognized language.

Why not?

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#125

Post by jdmichal »

joshrotenberg wrote: post #82
akavi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was said first, ironically, in Yiddish (a language that gains its status as such through its connection with an ethnic group, not military presence).

Link with more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an... a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot Yiddish is fascinating. (And entertaining when spoken by Mel Brooks as an Ind ... er, Native American).

I could pretty readily read (Latin-transliterated) Yiddish with just a couple years of German language classes.

> "Eine Sprache ist ein Dialekt mit einer Armee und einer Flotte"

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#126

Post by joshrotenberg »

Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #106
blocking_io wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there are any rules to "AAVE" either, one speaker of this dialect? creole? language? or whatever we're calling it, would not be able to point out grammatical errors in the speech of another. You're wrong. Linguists have been studying AAVE for years. It has been determined how the grammar of AAVE differs from SAE. All are bad English, i have no doubt whatsoever, that all would be understood by a speaker…

"You're wrong. Linguists have been studying AAVE for years. " Yeah but I didn't say Linguists wouldn't be able concoct a grammar for AAVE, I said one AAVE speaker would not be able to point out the grammatical errors of another. The sentence I gave was an example of AAEV from the article. The article used the sentence "I ain’t tell nobody nothing about no sushi". I just gave a bunch of other examples I thought would…

Yeah but I didn't say Linguists wouldn't be able concoct a grammar for AAVE, I said one AAVE speaker would not be able to point out the grammatical errors of another.

A linguist doesn't "concoct" a grammar (not an ethical one, at least). A grammar is described based on actual usage of the language. As evidenced by the section "AAVE grammatical Aspects" in the above Wikipedia article, there are clearly rules of grammar in AAVE. What evidence do you have that one speaker of AAVE wouldn't be able to point out grammatical errors?

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#127

Post by blocking_io »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #120
blocking_io wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really comparing how second language learners mangle a language to the first language of millions of Americans? As I said, English learners would not consistently apply rules. They make different mistakes. AAVE speakers reliably use the same grammar, and can understand each other unambiguously. Please explain why Standard American English is superior to AAVE. Why do you think SAE is any more valid than AAVE?

> Why do you think SAE is any more valid than AAVE? Wasn't AAVE originally created by people consciously trying to imitate SAE as best they could after limited education? Don't all the differences represent mistakes now immortalized?

Why is the origin relevant? Middle English incorporated Norman vocabulary into Old English following the invasion and subjugation of England. Does that make French a more valid language than English?

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#128

Post by joshrotenberg »

jdmichal wrote: post #125
joshrotenberg wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Link with more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an... a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot Yiddish is fascinating. (And entertaining when spoken by Mel Brooks as an Ind ... er, Native American).

I could pretty readily read (Latin-transliterated) Yiddish with just a couple years of German language classes. > "Eine Sprache ist ein Dialekt mit einer Armee und einer Flotte"

You might enjoy this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qQSAEMq5ko

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#129

Post by auctiontheory »

greggman wrote: post #80
dsfasfasf wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, you are equating AAVE with Spanish. AAVE is how people of poorer means speak or with less education speak, even if it's not politically correct to say it. Spanish is an actual language hundreds of years old and spoken by multiple nations. By your logic you might as well recognize English slang as an actual language. -Edit: So for those arguing that AAVE is a dialect, then If I add a few rules to any other…

Some cultures consider non standard dialects just that, "non standard". They don't deride people who speak them as poor or less educated. For example consider Japan. Nearly every region in Japan has its own dialect. Everyone learns, for lack of a better way to say it, "standard Japanese" which is the kind used by news broadcasters. But, to their friends and family in their hometown they speak their local dialect whic…

I think that "is the culture that speaks AAVE a valid culture?" is a vanishingly insignificant question compared to the critical real-life problem of providing black inner-city kids the education and communication skills necessary to make it in today's world.

If you graduate from high school speaking only AAVE, you are in big trouble. Students need to learn to speak standard English, whatever else they may or may not speak. Distracting from this huge priority with intellectual arguments about the validity of cultures does these kids a huge disservice.

Re: A mother tongue spoken by millions of Americans still gets no respect

#130

Post by omonra »

JoelSutherland wrote: post #40
Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can understand the argument for supporting AAVE in schools I can't. Schools are supposed to teach you the official language and all the skills you need to succeed in society. AAVE won't help you (or be useful) at work, or in academia, unless you are studying AAVE as your job. I agree that it will be divisive in the long run, I think you are right that encouraging AAVE to continue and legitimizing it and calling it…

I don't think you read the article. "Schools should recognize the legitimacy of AAVE as a language for their students, and teach those students to recognize when and how to switch between AAVE and American English as appropriate. But most schools don’t do that. They simply teach students that the way they speak is wrong. Don’t talk this way; talk our way. Wheeler says we’re still not doing right by children who grow…

Unless these kids are going to be reading books written in ebonics, perhaps they don't belong in higher reading groups?

Same works for Spanish speaking kids - if they don't speak / understand English, they would be placed in remedial classes, right?

Since the world (outside the neighborhood) speaks standard English, they are probably served well to learn that that's what they need to know to succeed. The approach advocated would produce the opposite effect - kids would think that what they hear at home is OK and that the world should accomodate them.

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