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We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

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Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The difference between being broke/not broke is the same as being poor/rich. There is no middle class anymore. Which sucks.

So much wrong with this statement I almost threw my monitor out the window. Broke is temporary. Poor is a state of mind and often may be permanent. More importantly, the implication is that without money, your life is meaningless - which is a terrible lie to believe. There is no middle class anymore : a line created by average folks who earn an average wage and spend too much and make minimum monthly payments on ever…

You do make valid points. Yet I reason you are reading two much between the lines. My point is that there are less opportunities for people to make a good standard living than there were before. That is simply from my POV, and I can definitely be wrong.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#142

That's probably one of the best and most insightful articles I've ever read, that used the term "first world problems". In fact, it may be the only article I've ever read that used that term, that wasn't a complete joke. There's so much truth there... we work on "stuff" and some of the "stuff" we work on is truly amazing in many ways, but - and I don't know about you - I sometimes find myself wondering "is this reall…

I just watched "Repo Men" again, and while it's not a great movie, nor is it directly related, it came back to haunt me while waiting in line at the bank: I'm still really afraid of "not being", specifically not being alive. And I asked myself, not for the first time, what's the purpose? Am I really making the world a better place? Does it matter? Eventually I settled on my old fallback of "well, as long as I'm happy" (which, BTW, questions like these keep me from being happy). But this article hits close to home, as does your comment, and there's not a day that goes by that I wish I was getting paid to work on open source software full time. And then I think even that wouldn't be enough, maybe I'm wasting my potential, and I should have stuck it out and gone to grad school and maybe done something amazing. Maybe not Nash or Knuth amazing, or Norman Borlaug amazing, but something of lasting value and worth that made the world a better place in innumerable ways.

Volunteering in other ways can help; while the effects aren't as long lasting or deep (but subtle), the instant gratification of helping to save a life can be surprisingly uplifting :)

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#143
post #115
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those jobs are gone these days. I grew up mostly in an upper middle class neighborhood, but for high school, we were bussed to a school in a more lower class area. There were a lot more trailer parks in the area and the auto body program at my high school was pretty popular. Just last week I was driving through that area and saw business after business with signs outside looking to hire CNC machinists, HVAC installer…

They're getting harder and harder to fill because they don't pay anything anymore. A friend of mine quit his apprenticeship as a machinist because he can make more money doing phone tech support for a cable company.

Machinists make a good living. How long was his apprenticeship?

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#144
post #45

We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators... That's a fine line. The most significant innovations are often iterations. (Google comes to mind.) Why do we do this? Because we want to get rich, of course. I disagree with "Because we want to get rich". And I definitely disagree with "of course". Real hackers do this because we just have to . It just so happens that currently it's also a grea…

> - prisoners are kept in jail I wouldn't be too proud of that. In fact I would turn down such a job "opportunity" if it ever should come up. Yes, I know. Prisons are a necessary evil until we come up with a better solution to crime but still they are evil and I don't want to help robbing fellow human beings of their freedom.

I was thinking you'd say along the lines of we're wasting our tax money on prisons.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#145

That's probably one of the best and most insightful articles I've ever read, that used the term "first world problems". In fact, it may be the only article I've ever read that used that term, that wasn't a complete joke. There's so much truth there... we work on "stuff" and some of the "stuff" we work on is truly amazing in many ways, but - and I don't know about you - I sometimes find myself wondering "is this reall…

I just watched "Repo Men" again, and while it's not a great movie, nor is it directly related, it came back to haunt me while waiting in line at the bank: I'm still really afraid of "not being", specifically not being alive. And I asked myself, not for the first time, what's the purpose? Am I really making the world a better place? Does it matter? Eventually I settled on my old fallback of "well, as long as I'm happy…

And then I think even that wouldn't be enough, maybe I'm wasting my potential, and I should have stuck it out and gone to grad school and maybe done something amazing. Maybe not Nash or Knuth amazing, or Norman Borlaug amazing, but something of lasting value and worth that made the world a better place in innumerable ways.

Yeah, I know the feeling. When I started my first real programming job, I spent a lot of time wondering if I'd made the right choice, and trying to figure out how - if at all - this job would lead to a scenario where I could say I changed the world in some sense. One of my biggest fears is, as you say, to have never been (for how I define "having been"). I sometimes thing, if I live a life where I do enough of note to one day justify having a Wikipedia page, then I could probably live with that.

It's interesting though... I saw an interview with a UFC fighter once (I think it might have been Dan Henderson, but don't hold me to that) where he was asked "What are your goals in life" and said something like "I want to be in the history books. Not the history books of ultimate fighting, but the history books kids read in school". I feel like that sometimes, like what would make me happy would be knowing that I left a mark behind that would outlast my mortal self.

But this article hits close to home, as does your comment, and there's not a day that goes by that I wish I was getting paid to work on open source software full time.

Yeah, that's another reason I do find a sense of purpose in this Fogbeam Labs thing. One of our goals is to provide a home for people like you (and me, and many others) who want to work on OSS stuff, but want to get paid as well. Basically, one big reason I want to create a company, is because the "company I would want to work for" doesn't exist, so I figure I'll just create it myself. If we succeed, I'd love to one day have Fogbeam Labs known as "a great home for hackers". I'm convinced we'll get there, but man, is it a lot of work! :-)

Volunteering in other ways can help; while the effects aren't as long lasting or deep (but subtle), the instant gratification of helping to save a life can be surprisingly uplifting

There's a lot to be said for various kinds of volunteering. In my case, I spent about a decade as a volunteer firefighter. That was a wild experience in so many more ways than I could ever tell. Some good, some bad, but at least all during that time I always knew I was doing something to really contribute to the world. Now, I never literally pulled somebody out of a burning building seconds before it collapsed, or any story-book stuff. But we responded to a few fires, make interior attacks, and knocked down the fire at an early enough stage to save the home, on a few occasions. So, I can take heart in knowing that, somewhere out there, are a handful of people who didn't have to go through digging through the remnants of a burnt home, and rebuilding from scratch, etc., and that I played a role in that. To this day, I probably still look back on some of those experiences as the most meaningful ones I've had in my life.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#147
It's great to think that the technology that we are consuming in the third world is going to trickle down, but I'm starting to wonder whether or not that's true.

Phones are sold until they have minor issues, then trashed. Software products are discontinued instead of being made open source.

We need to tackle these issues.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#148
I'm not sure how long the OP has been an arm-chair social scientist, but I've been one for twenty-five years, and I feel like I might be able to share some insights.

Firstly, his thesis could be boiled down to a very simple question: "Why do people do what they do (instead of what I want them to do)?" You suggest that they are insufficiently self-reflective, not very world-wise, and perhaps just a bit self-centred. These are reasonable inferences, but they don't go very deeply into understand the psychology, beliefs and motivations of your stereotypical spoiled white kid.

A deeper question we might ask in response to your thesis is, "What's wrong with the world (and why is nobody fixing it)?" The sub-question might alternately be: "Why aren't enough people fixing it?" or "Why aren't the right people fixing it?" Neé spoiled rich kids.

The problem with both questions is that they are primarily underscored by the implicit question, "Why aren't more people like me (and why don't they believe and feel like I do)?" But the answer to that is simple: evolution. Biological evolution ensures that there is a wide variety of people, physiologically, and social evolution (not Social Darwinism, thank you -- no ranking is being proposed) ensures that there are a wide variety of belief systems and mental models of how the world works and why.

But let's, for the moment, make the (unfounded and highly unlikely) assumption that the OP's point of view is somehow more informed, insightful, rational, or just generally "better" than those of all the people whom he is criticizing. I mean, he wouldn't have made the argument if he didn't think it had more merit than other arguments in favour of "iterating" or whatever other less noble activity they are pursuing instead. And he may be right (it's only unlikely based on probability, and the apparent level of effort pursued in constructing said argument).

People do what they do because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is in their interests. Either directly, in terms of immediate material rewards, through indirect rewards (material, social or even spiritual), or future rewards to their offspring. That is a basic economic tenet that is difficult to ignore. (It is hard to disprove, partly because "rewards" are variable and ill-defined). Stated another way, people do things because they think (or feel) that it is right (or reasonable) to do, or just because they want to do them.

It may be for riches, or that may merely be a subordinate goal towards pleasure, happiness, fulfillment or meaning. My suspicion is that people are primarily motivated by status (a measure of what is meaningful) when they behave in ways that affect their social surroundings, but otherwise they like pleasure, whether sensual, aesthetic or moral (and the pride or satisfaction from doing good is definitely a pleasure, as is that of winning, which could be called a moral activity, if you believe you are better than other people and deserve to win).

But not only do people do what they believe is good for their interests, they also don't do things that they think are bad for their interests, which is the true meaning of "wasting time": actions without real consequence (as estimated by the agent). This isn't bad or evil. Most people simply do not know how to "change the world" in a manner which will satisfy the OP, or at best have a very vague notion, and very little reason to be confident that they could do it. In other words, people engage in activities which they consider to have a reasonable chance of success. Exactly how they arrived at their estimate of risk/reward is another question.

But in fact it is the ultimate question, since that is where the rubber meets the road. The extent to which someone is misinformed, delusional or outright insane is something that has to be determined for each individual. But we can generalize that the vast majority of people do not have the necessary knowledge, skills, insights and experience to go about saving the world. Nor do they have the right social connections, or affiliations with groups which are changing the world (and have no interest in becoming fund-raisers hanging out on malls and street corners), and are generally discouraged from participating in such marginal activities by their elders and role models, for many reasons (some or all of which may be ill-reasoned, based on false premises, and riddled with superstitions, false authority and bias, and yet are nevertheless core to the world view which these people have at their disposal).

So, for the OP's sake, maybe it's time that he revised his viewpoint on what is wrong with the world, and how to change it. Not by writing blog posts accusing others of failing to live up to his standards (yes, this could be ironic, but in fact I am not judging the OP's career or life goals, merely his argument), but instead by either a) trying to understand better why people don't, in fact, share his beliefs and values, and/or b) by learning how to impart his own wisdom in such a way that he has some modicum of hope in actually affecting the views of other people, rather than just appealing to a crowd of like-minded people with whom he can share his sense of superiority.

On the other hand, maybe that was his goal, and maybe he achieved it, so good for him!

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#149
I don't like the negativity associated with "first world" problem. The "first world" problems are very much real. If you believe that the rest of the world will catch up eventually with the "first world", they will have these "first world" problems too. We need to solve these "first world" problems. The only argument against it suggests a darker future where there is, and will always be, a huge gap between the rich and the poor, and the poor will stagnate forever. I don't choose to believe that.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, even better, GO TO Kenya. Live there for a year. Travel around the country. Learn the language. When you come home you will not only have a handful of disruptive startup ideas, but, most importantly, an open mind about the disparate cultures of the world.

Please don't do this. You cannot simply understand and be able to fix things in a society just by visiting it. You will always have the option of walking away and you will never have the same experience of the native inhabitants you believe you are trying to help. To truly help people from other countries, you have to get out of their way and let them have their own success and autonomy.

So just ignore them, and it'll work itself out?
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