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We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

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Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#61

Post by orangethirty »

ja27 wrote: post #56
orangethirty wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do. Let me explain. I grew up in a barrio , which is a latin ghetto. Junked cars in front lawns, domestic disturbances every night, shootings, drugs, all of that stuff. Every kid in there made money by pure hustle. There were no jobs available for any of us. Some kids cut hair (then went on to become barbers), others worked on cars, but most sold drugs. There were startups, but all were of the illegal variet…

Those jobs are gone these days. I grew up mostly in an upper middle class neighborhood, but for high school, we were bussed to a school in a more lower class area. There were a lot more trailer parks in the area and the auto body program at my high school was pretty popular. Just last week I was driving through that area and saw business after business with signs outside looking to hire CNC machinists, HVAC installer…

Yes, you point another issue. In high school, I had the option to learn about other subjects aside from the standard math, English, Spanish, and science. There was a program that taught students about business (and had them run one from their classroom), one for music (which had them build a band), and wood shop (which had people building furniture). All of those programs are gone these days. All of them. Why? Budget cuts. But here is the real impact of such programs: All of the older people in the barrio that did not sell drugs, and were mechanics or construction workers, had learned their trade in school. This generation does not have that anymore.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#62

Post by mpyne »

cllns wrote: post #57
pnathan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the extreme risk of starting a flame war, why do you seem to posit that he should do that as a moral obligation? (I'm reading that you posit that, perhaps I misinterpreted) If I read that correctly, under what strictures do you interpret reading about the idea of privilege (noting that this word in and of itself has contested and differing meanings) as a moral obligation?

Very good question. I'm not sure I have a good answer. I haven't though about it in terms of it being a moral obligation. My intuitive, immediate response is that it has something to do with (most?) privilege being an unfair, oppressive institution: one that is self replicating unless it's actively fought. I'm not sure this actually addresses the question you asked though.

> My intuitive, immediate response is that it has something to do with (most?) privilege being an unfair, oppressive institution: one that is self replicating unless it's actively fought.

You should be careful how you consider this though. We wouldn't hack a tall person's legs off at the knee to force them to be equally as tall as the rest of us, nor do we give geniuses lobotomies to try and equal out intelligence within the population.

It is no one's moral imperative to punish themselves for being placed in a good situation. If life was inherently fair we'd all still be a soup of completely equal unicellular organisms. Our differences and our circumstances conspire to make it so that not everyone has the exact same shot at success, but that's not the worst possible thing that could happen either.

If you want to reduce unfair privilege I would recommend starting by helping those without it, instead of obligating those with it.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#63

Post by mongol »

YES! That is so true. How many times have you not heard "we should not invent the wheel again". To this I always thought to myself (but seldom said) - but the wheel is invented over and over again. New wheels for new purposes, better working for their purpose, whether F1 cars, Jumbo Jets, trains, trolleys, carts etc etc. However it is so true - the wheel is not reinvented, it is improved, iterated over again. And it is just like it should be

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#65

Post by samirahmed »

edw519 wrote: post #45

We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators... That's a fine line. The most significant innovations are often iterations. (Google comes to mind.) Why do we do this? Because we want to get rich, of course. I disagree with "Because we want to get rich". And I definitely disagree with "of course". Real hackers do this because we just have to . It just so happens that currently it's also a grea…

out of curiosity - how did you contribute to these, through your work? open-source contribution? consulting.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#66

Post by makomk »

orangethirty wrote: post #61
ja27 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those jobs are gone these days. I grew up mostly in an upper middle class neighborhood, but for high school, we were bussed to a school in a more lower class area. There were a lot more trailer parks in the area and the auto body program at my high school was pretty popular. Just last week I was driving through that area and saw business after business with signs outside looking to hire CNC machinists, HVAC installer…

Yes, you point another issue. In high school, I had the option to learn about other subjects aside from the standard math, English, Spanish, and science. There was a program that taught students about business (and had them run one from their classroom), one for music (which had them build a band), and wood shop (which had people building furniture). All of those programs are gone these days. All of them. Why? Budget…

Exactly, and no matter how desperate businesses claim to be for skilled staff they're hardly going to start training them up themselves either. On-the-job training is dead or dying basically everywhere.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#68

Post by makomk »

mpyne wrote: post #62
cllns wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good question. I'm not sure I have a good answer. I haven't though about it in terms of it being a moral obligation. My intuitive, immediate response is that it has something to do with (most?) privilege being an unfair, oppressive institution: one that is self replicating unless it's actively fought. I'm not sure this actually addresses the question you asked though.

> My intuitive, immediate response is that it has something to do with (most?) privilege being an unfair, oppressive institution: one that is self replicating unless it's actively fought. You should be careful how you consider this though. We wouldn't hack a tall person's legs off at the knee to force them to be equally as tall as the rest of us, nor do we give geniuses lobotomies to try and equal out intelligence wi…

That's a very impressive strawman you've got there, given that the comment you replied to didn't argue that people should "punish themselves for being placed in a good situation", let alone that they should be brought down to the level of the rest of the population. All cllns was arguing was that people should be aware of their status in society.

Unless, of course, you think that being made aware just how little of what they take for granted is available to others and how unimportant their own skills were is cruel to privileged people? Because if that's the case, fuck you. Seriously.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#69

Post by orangethirty »

makomk wrote: post #66
orangethirty wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you point another issue. In high school, I had the option to learn about other subjects aside from the standard math, English, Spanish, and science. There was a program that taught students about business (and had them run one from their classroom), one for music (which had them build a band), and wood shop (which had people building furniture). All of those programs are gone these days. All of them. Why? Budget…

Exactly, and no matter how desperate businesses claim to be for skilled staff they're hardly going to start training them up themselves either. On-the-job training is dead or dying basically everywhere.

Which is a pity, because I know a lot of talented people who are just dying to get an opportunity to learn on the job. Not college trained, or even really bright, but talented, and willing to learn.

Re: We call ourselves innovators, but most of us are really just iterators

#70

Post by potatolicious »

pnathan wrote: post #43
cllns wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. This is a tough point. The 'system' obviously sucks but I don't want to skirt personal responsibility. It's the upper-middle class straight white cisgendered male's fault if he doesn't take the time to learn about his privilege. He has the resources, but chooses to ignore it. (Note: I'm not saying the person from the article necessarily fits this description; I'm speaking more generally)

At the extreme risk of starting a flame war, why do you seem to posit that he should do that as a moral obligation? (I'm reading that you posit that, perhaps I misinterpreted) If I read that correctly, under what strictures do you interpret reading about the idea of privilege (noting that this word in and of itself has contested and differing meanings) as a moral obligation?

> "why do you seem to posit that he should do that as a moral obligation?"

Because otherwise they become tyrants.

We're talking about the most powerful, most influential demographic in a particular place, whether that's Western European in the US or Han-Chinese in China. There is a dominant group that gets a tremendous amount of decision-making power, and those in power have the moral obligation of having perspective.

Because without understanding and perspective you don't just get silliness, you get real harm - "The poor are poor because they're too lazy to work" is a silly thought, until it influences policy, and then it becomes tragedy.

There is absolutely a moral obligation to seek perspective (cast another, understand one's own privilege), and this goes double if your race/religion/etc grants you power over others.

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