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The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

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Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#31

Post by potatolicious »

bjhoops1 wrote: post #24
potatolicious wrote: post #3

Good God. I enjoy long prose (in fact, I crave long form writing), but this is interminable. The author treads, and re-treads, and re-treads, the exact same ground paragraph after paragraph, from a slightly different angle each time, making strange, unsubstantiated character attacks each time. I'm pretty sure that ground is just mud now. If anyone has had the stomach to finish this, please let me know if there was ac…

Hey, what a surprise - the top comment on a HN post comes from a reader who dismisses the post outright despite failing to actually read it in its entirety.

Your ad hominem attack against me is not appreciated, nor is your attempt to treat me as a category and stereotype rather than a real person behind a keyboard.

Like others here, I make it a general rule to read everything, and even consulting other sources, before commenting. Like others here also, I had not the time nor the inclination to go through the entirety of a 16,000 word behemoth of writing when the first 8,000 words were rote reptitions of a single point already copiously made within 1,000 words. Being no stranger to long-form writing, and seeing no visible structure to the work that would suggest it's going anywhere besides more reptition of the same point, I gave up - like others here did.

A basic modicum of civility is desirable, and this includes blatant labeling and name-calling.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#32

Post by tptacek »

teawithcarl wrote: post #23
pg wrote: post #20

Stylish and smooth-talking are the last words I'd use to describe Tim. Whereas they do fairly accurately describe the tone of this article.

I have mixed feelings about the (intellectual, sometimes snob troll/badger) Evgeny Morozov. Yet, I've read him enthusiastically for years. On par, he's important. Nothing wrong with sharp dissent. Despite perhaps carving his own "media empire" by knocking Silicon Valley - he speaks truth. Always worth reading. This is the BEST essay I've read in a long time, and genuinely sorts out the history between "open source" a…

I sort of understand the value people see in Morozov as a counterweight to tech's occasional fatuousness, but this wasn't a good article. As someone who is morally (if not intellectually) coming from a similar place as him, I found myself getting progressively more and more unhappy with the article the farther I got; it became a caricature of a point that deserves to be made more carefully.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#34

Post by RougeFemme »

Yes, it's long. No, I didn't finish it - yet. I fully intend to. I thought it would be a relatively quick read and then it turned out to be more of an intellectual exercise than I anticipated. Still, it kept me interested enough to make me want to go back and read more. Even though I took it all with a grain of salt, I started viewing O'Reilley from a different perspective - maybe not so much different as more complex. And his view of Silicon Valley was certainly a breath of fresh air compared to what normally makes it through the media filters.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#35

Post by danso »

teawithcarl wrote: post #23
pg wrote: post #20

Stylish and smooth-talking are the last words I'd use to describe Tim. Whereas they do fairly accurately describe the tone of this article.

I have mixed feelings about the (intellectual, sometimes snob troll/badger) Evgeny Morozov. Yet, I've read him enthusiastically for years. On par, he's important. Nothing wrong with sharp dissent. Despite perhaps carving his own "media empire" by knocking Silicon Valley - he speaks truth. Always worth reading. This is the BEST essay I've read in a long time, and genuinely sorts out the history between "open source" a…

Oh please, Morozov's appeal lies almost exclusively in his ability to teardown strawmen of his own creation ("oh look, some stupid startup thinks it can save the whales, isn't Silicon Valley so stupid?") or inciting fear over technological advances by citing obscure studies and anecdotes. He's like an Ann Coulter sans brevity.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#36

Post by dcalacci »

teawithcarl wrote: post #23
pg wrote: post #20

Stylish and smooth-talking are the last words I'd use to describe Tim. Whereas they do fairly accurately describe the tone of this article.

I have mixed feelings about the (intellectual, sometimes snob troll/badger) Evgeny Morozov. Yet, I've read him enthusiastically for years. On par, he's important. Nothing wrong with sharp dissent. Despite perhaps carving his own "media empire" by knocking Silicon Valley - he speaks truth. Always worth reading. This is the BEST essay I've read in a long time, and genuinely sorts out the history between "open source" a…

I first found the tone of the article harsh and unjustified, and stopped reading after the second section.

I don't think I've read Morozov before, so after reading your comments, I dove back in for a second take.

I agree that it is an impressively concise and clear history of free vs open source - that alone made the article worthwhile, I think.

Regarding HN readers dumping on him:

> Lumping everything under the label of “Internet freedom” did have some advantages for those genuinely interested in promoting rights such as freedom of expression—the religious fervor that many users feel about the Internet has helped catalyze a lot of activist campaigns—but, by and large, the concept also blunted our analytical ability to balance rights against each other.

This is spot-on, and is especially poignant when applied to sites such as Reddit, where users championing "Internet Freedom" occasionally eschew morality in order to create an ethical martyr for their cause - see the case of the 'jailbait' subreddit. I have no doubt that those users and similarly minded users who browse HN would find the above insulting.

He makes other insights throughout the article that would apply to similarly ardent groups of users that are around the HN-sphere.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#37

Post by bjhoops1 »

potatolicious wrote: post #31
bjhoops1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, what a surprise - the top comment on a HN post comes from a reader who dismisses the post outright despite failing to actually read it in its entirety.

Your ad hominem attack against me is not appreciated, nor is your attempt to treat me as a category and stereotype rather than a real person behind a keyboard. Like others here, I make it a general rule to read everything, and even consulting other sources, before commenting. Like others here also, I had not the time nor the inclination to go through the entirety of a 16,000 word behemoth of writing when the first 8,…

I did not call you any name (unless you count "reader"), nor was I attacking you. I was merely sarcastically expressing my frustration at a trend I've observed on HN in which the top comment on an article which I highly enjoyed is almost invariably someone disagreeing outright, often without having read the entire post.

If you read half of that behemoth of an article, good for you - you can't be accused of not giving it a fair chance (although I found that second half to be more interesting and insightful myself).

I just find it aggravating and perhaps indicative of a negative attitude amongst HN readers that contrarian comments almost always end up at the top of the thread. That is all. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#38

Post by anateus »

bjhoops1 wrote: post #37
potatolicious wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ad hominem attack against me is not appreciated, nor is your attempt to treat me as a category and stereotype rather than a real person behind a keyboard. Like others here, I make it a general rule to read everything, and even consulting other sources, before commenting. Like others here also, I had not the time nor the inclination to go through the entirety of a 16,000 word behemoth of writing when the first 8,…

I did not call you any name (unless you count "reader"), nor was I attacking you. I was merely sarcastically expressing my frustration at a trend I've observed on HN in which the top comment on an article which I highly enjoyed is almost invariably someone disagreeing outright, often without having read the entire post. If you read half of that behemoth of an article, good for you - you can't be accused of not giving…

I think this wasn't a case of middlebrow dismissal which you rightly rail against. The original comment seems to be directly complaining about the style of the author rather than just dismissing it off hand. When it comes to Morozov this is a salient aspect, because while he certainly does his homework he tends to revel in polemic bordering on vitriol.

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#39

Post by bcantrill »

potatolicious wrote: post #3

Good God. I enjoy long prose (in fact, I crave long form writing), but this is interminable. The author treads, and re-treads, and re-treads, the exact same ground paragraph after paragraph, from a slightly different angle each time, making strange, unsubstantiated character attacks each time. I'm pretty sure that ground is just mud now. If anyone has had the stomach to finish this, please let me know if there was ac…

I tried to read it, but my brain kept powering itself off as a self-defense mechanism. Then I tried to skim it, and it started getting worse, e.g.: "Another apt example of O’Reilly’s meme-engineering is his attempt to establish a strong intellectual link between the development of Unix [...] and the development of open source and the Internet." At this point I became blind with nerd-rage and headed over here to cleanse myself...

Ironic that it should deface Unix, because I think that dmr's immortal words[1] are particularly apt here: this piece is "a pudding stuffed with apposite observations, many well-conceived. Like excrement, it contains enough undigested nuggets of nutrition to sustain life for some. But it is not a tasty pie: it reeks too much of contempt and of envy."

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3106271

Re: The Meme Hustler - Tim O’Reilly’s crazy talk

#40

Post by goldfeld »

teawithcarl wrote: post #23
pg wrote: post #20

Stylish and smooth-talking are the last words I'd use to describe Tim. Whereas they do fairly accurately describe the tone of this article.

I have mixed feelings about the (intellectual, sometimes snob troll/badger) Evgeny Morozov. Yet, I've read him enthusiastically for years. On par, he's important. Nothing wrong with sharp dissent. Despite perhaps carving his own "media empire" by knocking Silicon Valley - he speaks truth. Always worth reading. This is the BEST essay I've read in a long time, and genuinely sorts out the history between "open source" a…

So I've just looked up Morozov's book and then realized I could get it at.. Safari Books Online (an O'Reilly Media venture.) Oh the irony. Still, it's free. Free as in I already pay for the subscription.
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