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Problems with the TSA

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21–30 of 218 posts

Re: Problems with the TSA

#21

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

This "appeal to the average" is getting old. I wager you would be surprised what the "average american" takes an interest in.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#22
post #18

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA'…

I think this poll is representative of many that have touched on the issue:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/156491/americans-views-tsa-positi...

Re: Problems with the TSA

#23

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds.

As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am familiar a bit with oppression, keeping your mouth shut, not saying the wrong thing and listening to authority. That is why I have a smell test and a perspective to compare between.

Anyone think I am off the mark completely? Obviously in this forum most people aren't but am I completely off the mark in respect to the average Joe Sixpack? What is the reason for that? Kids do learn in schools about fighting for independence from England, about Founding Fathers, etc etc. so where does blind submission to authority come from?

Re: Problems with the TSA

#24
post #9

On March 1, 2013, San Francisco TSA FYI, "Covenant Aviation Security, a private company under contract with the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), provides passenger and baggage screening at SFO." Per http://www.flysfo.com/web/page/atsfo/saf-sec/

True, but you can't pin it entirely on Covenant -- If you watch the video, the Covenant representative who staffs the security checkpoint bring in the TSA agent for the airport to the checkpoint. The Covenant representative basically denies any authority to interpret the rules or make a decision other than to get the TSA agent. The TSA agent appears no better.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#25

Lots of good points. But he does state his disability in public on the web, no problem, while also complaining that he doesn't want to be outed at airports. I'm unclear on why being outed at airports is so bad if telling the whole world is ok. If he addressed this apparent contradiction I'd sympathize even more.

You fail to address the fact that it is him choosing to disclose it. That is very different from being forced to.

The serious problem I see here is that even after he indicated he is not able to talk to them they refused him to use pen and paper. I also have a speech impediment and carry those with me. Taking them away and not letting someone use them when they are already frazzled and upset is like asking someone in the wheelchair to just "stop being a pussy and get up and walk" or accusing them of "being uncooperative".

Re: Problems with the TSA

#26
post #18

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" i…

Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA'…

Even armed with statistics or a report from a "legitmate" (paid) research firm, in the end you can always find something credible looking to back up what you say or believe. Often being confronted with proof to the contrary makes a believer even more convinced of their belief.

The real problem here is the difference between what people think, what people say and what people do. Everyone hates the screening process, and even the most law-and-order "nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" Ward Cleaver type is going to see patronizing, questionable and occasionally abusive behaviour.

It can be scary to confront the idea that the government might not have your best interests at heart, and scared people are not likely to speak up unless something is happening to them.

People are herded like animals through the screening process. The entire scenario is designed to scare people into complacency and obedience. Herds are not known for thinking rationally.

In the end, there's no obvious way to get enough people in a herd to speak up. That means that people who do get frustrated and push back look like trouble makers, they are made to look like the suspicious ones. Anyone who might want to help is fighting against the fear that they too will be singled out.

It's a vicious circle experienced by anyone that flies frequently. Asking for "evidence" that people aren't upset is missing the point.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#27
post #22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA'…

I think this poll is representative of many that have touched on the issue: http://www.gallup.com/poll/156491/americans-views-tsa-positi...

Thanks, that's a fair reference. Still, they weren't measuring whether most people see _absolutely nothing wrong_. That's a fair piece further. Boycotting, protesting, or requesting disclosures under FOIA take a lot of effort and risk. The threshold of quiet discomfort before action is pretty high on this one.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#29

Lots of good points. But he does state his disability in public on the web, no problem, while also complaining that he doesn't want to be outed at airports. I'm unclear on why being outed at airports is so bad if telling the whole world is ok. If he addressed this apparent contradiction I'd sympathize even more.

I think he's fighting this on principle, and doesn't want others to have to out themselves either.

Re: Problems with the TSA

#30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA'…

Even armed with statistics or a report from a "legitmate" (paid) research firm, in the end you can always find something credible looking to back up what you say or believe. Often being confronted with proof to the contrary makes a believer even more convinced of their belief. The real problem here is the difference between what people think, what people say and what people do. Everyone hates the screening process, a…

You're absolutely right about herd mentality and the overall process that isolates trouble-makers. But I wasn't asking for proof that people aren't upset. I'm questioning the idea that a majority of fliers see _nothing_ wrong with this process.
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