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Standups are Not Poisonous

dshimy.github.com

71–80 of 125 posts

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#71
post #46

At my current job at turntable.fm, we only have standups twice a week (Tuesday and Thursday), and I honestly was surprised at how effective that is. I've always operated under the assumption that a standup needs to happen daily to be valuable, but trying them 2x weekly has changed my mind. I think the real problem is when a standup is the only way that a team actually communicates status. At turntable we rely heavily…

And this is a very good example on what Agile is about. The daily stand ups are part of the basic "framework" but not mandatory if something else works better for a team. The key is to constantly inspect how the process is working and be open, as a team, to make adjustments.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#72
post #14

I'm genuinely curious, how are standups not status meetings? From the article: - Make sure everyone is working on the right thing - Help out other team members by taking work off their plate or helping them by sharing domain-specific knowledge - Keeping everyone informed How is that different from a status meeting? I've heard "standups are not status meetings" over and over from the agile community, but I don't get i…

Standups are definitely status meetings, and there's nothing wrong with that. As someone else mentioned, it's the audience that matters. 5 or 6 good engineers and a clueful manager in a room are going to sync up and get back to work, usually in less than 10 minutes. Some people, including engineers, are prone to go on and on, perhaps even about something interesting like a bug or a new library they found. Make those people go last.

If the meeting takes longer than it's supposed to, walk out or hang up.

If someone is rambling on about something that isn't going to help the team move forward, say something.

Standups will not fix a bad team, or a bad manager.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#73
post #14

I'm genuinely curious, how are standups not status meetings? From the article: - Make sure everyone is working on the right thing - Help out other team members by taking work off their plate or helping them by sharing domain-specific knowledge - Keeping everyone informed How is that different from a status meeting? I've heard "standups are not status meetings" over and over from the agile community, but I don't get i…

The difference is the audience. I usually think of a status meeting as a one-way infodump from worker to manager. In a well-run standup, your audience is the whole team, because you're accountable to the team rather than any one person, and as a team member you're an active listener. If everyone's talking at the boss while the standup is going around then you're doing it wrong. Edit: wrong, not right.

Exactly this. I've seen plenty of faux stand-up meetings, where it's all about keeping the boss informed, and everybody else zones out. That's entirely wrong.

Another wrong way is to take a long time. It's a quick meeting, where everybody syncs up for the day and major issues are raised. I think of it as like the way players will quickly huddle together on a sports field. It should be high energy, biased toward finishing, and tabling any significant discussions for later.

As far as I'm concerned, they only make sense in a team environment. Where people are jointly working on shared goals and extensively support one another. In the Extreme Programming approach, they go along with a team work queue and collective code ownership.

If people, say, have individual work queues parceled out by a boss and don't interact much, then as far as I'm concerned the stand-up meeting is the wrong tool.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#74
post #29
post #14

I'm genuinely curious, how are standups not status meetings? From the article: - Make sure everyone is working on the right thing - Help out other team members by taking work off their plate or helping them by sharing domain-specific knowledge - Keeping everyone informed How is that different from a status meeting? I've heard "standups are not status meetings" over and over from the agile community, but I don't get i…

I've never experienced standups that weren't status meetings, and weren't serious flow disrupters. You get to the office, but don't really want to get too deeply into your work because you know standup time is 9:00. The team gets together, each person summarizes what they did yesterday, what they plan to do today, what blockers they have. Everyone else mostly zones out. Next thing you know 30 minutes have passed, and…

Yes, you've experienced terrible stand-up meetings. My rule of thumb is 10 minutes, max. Is everybody really standing comfortably for 30 minutes? Your coworkers must be tougher than I am.

Also, who are people talking to if not the rest of the team? Why are they saying things that other team members don't care about?

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#75

I used to hate standups when I was at Yahoo. Maybe it's more a sign of how broken Yahoo is than how broken standups are, but the daily process was roughly: 0. 9am, catch up on email, then coast for a while knowing you'll have to stop work at 10am. 1. Find out which meeting room the 10am standup is in 2. Figure out where in the building that room is 3. Travel to the rough part of the building, hunt around for the room…

Wow, that's like a zoo of process pathologies. In order, the things I see:

I like doing the stand-up as early as possible, so that there's minimal slack time before hand. And I prefer to work in ways that are less dependent on the state in one's head, including test-driven development and pair programming.

The standup is always in the team room. Everybody on the same team works in the same room. Generally, you do it in front of the kanban that shows the state of the project.

Because it's right where everybody works, it's pretty easy to be on time. Regardless, it starts on time. No waiting for stragglers; it just encourages them.

You stand for 10 minutes or so.

The team is some reasonable size; I think of 12 as a maximum.

If the people turning up have nothing to do with you, then it's not actually a team. Teams are groups of people that win or lose together. Team members help one another out to achieve shared goals.

If what people say is boring, you should be able to tell them so. They are there to talk to the team; there's no point in them saying things that aren't useful to the team.

Coffee should be in or near the team room. Ditto water, snacks, and other things necessary for humans to do work.

The stand-up should be run in such a way that people leave ready to jump on things.

If I had to guess from your description, I'd say that Yahoo took a top-down culture, pasted on some Agile rituals, and kept right doing the same old bullshit. Which, honestly, is a giant waste of time. If you're going to do waterfall in a command-and-control context, just do that. No sense putting agile lipstick on your waterfall pig.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#76

Aside from standups becoming status meetings (which it a mechanism of superficial management used by terrible managers), one of my gripes with them is that they're often redundant -- everyone should know what everyone else is working on, and what everyone else finished, and any blocking issues, via your agile tool (e.g. Rally). Redundancy in information is a terrible, terrible thing, and it leads to a situation where…

In which case, I'd say stop putting information in the tool. We ran my last company on index cards. You can see a picture here:

https://www.quora.com/Startups/Which-is-the-best-To-Do-List-...

The average card had maybe 4 words on it. We knew about issues because we talked about them.

I love the written word, but it is so much slower and less efficient than face-to-face communication in so many circumstances. The highest-bandwidth, lowest-latency human communication system is conversation.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#77

Honestly, I can't understand all of the vitriol around "agile" methods that arises here occasionally. If you're doing something that works for your team, do it, if it doesn't work, do something else. Isn't that the whole idea behind "agile" stuff? Do people get stuck in situations where they have to do X because "we're doing agile, and agile says we must do X"? If so, can't the offenders be gently pointed to http://a…

Oh, the vitriol is entirely earned.

I learned one of the Agile methods before the term Agile was even invented. Adopting it made a giant difference in the quality and sanity of my work.

But so many people today have have pseudo-Agile methods inflicted on them in large corporate contexts. There, the point isn't to make things saner and more effective. It's to please some executive who has a bee in their bonnet. And often, they only adopt some labels and some rituals. It's all pain, no gain.

I wrote about how this happened here: http://agilefocus.com/2011/02/21/agiles-second-chasm-and-how...

But it's at the point where I avoid using the term "Agile". Or any other buzzword. I look at the circumstances, and say, "Hey, you guys feel pain X. Can we try change Y and see if that helps?" Often, the tool is one from the Agile or Lean toolbox. But I won't talk about the particular process I'm borrowing from because a) most people don't care, and b) a lot of people have been burned with faux-Agile adoptions.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#78

"Remember, they are not status meetings." Additionally, I think it is important to remember that standup is not a "justify my existence on the team" meeting. Having nothing to report is fine.

I agree, but i notice that i find it difficult to act on it, and many with me. Any tips for how to get the "look, i did work" urge out of the way?

To me, that's a sign of low collaboration and low trust. If your team does regular retrospectives, I'd just say, "Look, I feel like in stand-ups, I keep having to justify my existence. Do other people feel that? What can we change to make that better?"

Off the top of my head, I'd look at the size of the unit of work and the length of the release cycle. I think Agile processes work best when the work is broken down into lots of small deliverables that meet the INVEST criteria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INVEST_%28mnemonic%29

If the team is jointly completing a few shippable things a day, then everybody should have a pretty good idea that everybody else is working. Doubly so if those are actually getting released daily.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#79

I have tried to get this point across at every place I have worked. Management covets micromanagement, so stands turn into status meetings.

My team just went through more agile training, and one piece of advice I found interesting was to consider keeping the managers out of the standup if it's not working. The meeting is to help others on the team, so that's the only people who need to be there.

Absolutely! And once things are running well enough that you can let the managers back in, it's still reasonable to forbid them to talk. Unless they are on the hook for deliverables, then they are at best there to observe.

Re: Standups are Not Poisonous

#80

I appreciate the author taking the time to write the article, but my opinion is that the whole purpose of a daily standup is to open a line of communication between team members. Well, if you have this line of communication open 24 hours, emails, chat (xmpp, irc ..etc), phone, and so forth, why do I need to wait till tomorrow afternoon for the scheduled daily standup to talk about a blocker in my code?

There's nothing wrong with talking more often. It's just to make sure that a team syncs up on a shared understanding of the state of things at least that often.
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