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“My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

bitcointalk.org

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Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#161
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why, but natermer's past several posts are all dead. He wrote: > The people running the government, which uses the taxes to secure loans that they have no intention on paying back, in order to prop up a failing economy that is failing because of the rules and regulations that are setup to maximize the illigit profit for said people running government.. those are the real gangsters. > Most large state gov…

I'm not sure why, but natermer's past several posts are all dead. He was hellbanned in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4276766

They now use hellban when they have nothing to say? How sad.

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been following this too closely, but the impression I've got from the news media is that the vast majority of accounts with >100k Euros are there for tax avoidance and other shady purposes like you mention. It sucks that this guy's business lost money, but I have a hard time feeling too bad for him, if he (probably) only had the account there for tax avoidance purposes. I'm curious what percentage of the ac…

Cyprus's banks are more than just dumps for dirty Russian money. is a banking hub for a variety of entities who want to do business with Europe. They help western Europe and Russia (and, more recently, emerging markets) invest in each other, get stocks listed on each others' exchanges, comply with the applicable financial regulations, and things like that. They do lots of "financial services" and consulting. Or they…

And then they used their expertise to buy Greece debt.

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#163
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there are very very big deposits in your banks relative to your GDP... I'm not saying that this solution is ideal or "really fair", but when you deposit your money in a bank that gives very high interests compared to other banks in the same currency, you should know you're assuming higher risks. And it isn't fair that if everything goes well you keep the interests, if it goes bad someone else pays for the risk…

> And it isn't fair that if everything goes well you keep the interests, if it goes bad someone else pays for the risk. If you sincerely think that Cyprus doesn't set a precedent putting everyone in the Eurozone at stake you're wrong. My issue isn't that Cyprus should or shouldn't receive a bailout, it's the undemocratic way the Troika have gone about it and the punitive requirements foisted on them for a bailout whe…

Not undemocratic at all, because Cyprus has had the democratic option not to accept EU/IMF bailout money (which is being withdrawn from others bank accounts, typically others, who receive much lower interest rates on their savings than Cypriots did in the past, and who's government finances have been eroded by the dodgy money laundering that was Cyprus' main business model). The parliament of Cyprus has democratically decided to accept that money. Nothing undemocratic about it.

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. It may be influenced by changes in the money supply, but is not defined by them. What evidence do you have to back up your assertion that "Fed generates massive inflation"?

Inflation is not a general rise in the prices of goods; prices going up is merely one symptom of inflation. Inflation is the expansion of the monetary base. Printing dollars, for example, is inflation. The increase in prices is a result of inflation, and there are numerous effects other than prices going up. It's critical in economics to separate supply & demand of goods causing increases or decreases in prices, from…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

Very first sentence: "In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time."

Yeah, it's Wikipedia, but if this definition was as obviously wrong as you portray it, don't you think someone would have fixed it? Or is Wikipedia also part of the grand conspiracy to take your money?

You're communicating a classic conspiracy theory, and like most conspiracy theories, it seems so compelling because it contains the truth. If a central bank expands the money supply in excess of demand, they will create inflation--true. The Fed has management goal of producing and maintaining mild, consistent inflation--true. The value of a dollar has declined greatly since the Fed was created--true.

But like most conspiracy theories it's not the whole truth, and thus leads to an inaccurate view of the world, one in which the importance of currency is greatly overemphasized. Is money supply the only factor that causes inflation? No. Has the inflation produced by the Fed harmed the economy? No. Living standards today are far higher than they were 100 years ago. Dollars are worth a lot less, but we have a lot more of them, and wealth (which is not the same thing as currency) has increased dramatically.

There is more to economics than money.

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. It may be influenced by changes in the money supply, but is not defined by them. What evidence do you have to back up your assertion that "Fed generates massive inflation"?

Inflation is not a general rise in the prices of goods; prices going up is merely one symptom of inflation. Inflation is the expansion of the monetary base. Printing dollars, for example, is inflation. The increase in prices is a result of inflation, and there are numerous effects other than prices going up. It's critical in economics to separate supply & demand of goods causing increases or decreases in prices, from…

Inflation is not a general rise in the prices of goods; prices going up is merely one symptom of inflation. Inflation is the expansion of the monetary base.

OK, so since we're discussing inflation as an economics concept, it only makes sense as long as we keep to the economics definition of inflation. If you want to use your own definition, you're free to do so, but then the discussion leaves the mainstream economics domain, and you should be clear about that.

Definitions:

http://economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/inflation.... Inflation is an increase in the price of a basket of goods and services that is representative of the economy as a whole.

http://economics.about.com/od/helpforeconomicsstudents/f/inf... A similar definition of inflation can be found in Economics by Parkin and Bade: Inflation is an upward movement in the average level of prices. Its opposite is deflation, a downward movement in the average level of prices. The boundary between inflation and deflation is price stability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services.

How is inflation measured? Using Consumer Price Index: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Printing dollars, for example, is inflation. The increase in prices is a result of inflation, and there are numerous effects other than prices going up.

According to whom?

It's critical in economics to separate supply & demand of goods causing increases or decreases in prices, from monetary changes. Free market forces are not the same as central bank forces.

Doesn't seem relevant.

There's about 200 years of modern economic evidence for how exactly inflation works and how central banks create it.

This would be a perfect place to cite some of that evidence.

I'll ignore the fact that the Fed has openly admitted it has devalued the dollar by 97% since its founding.

That's fine; I'm not sure what any sort of 'admission' may have to do with an argument at hand.

I'll also ignore the fact that Bernanke recently said it was the goal of the Fed to generate asset inflation via QE aka debasing the dollar (see real estate skyrocketing 10% again, or 22% in Phoenix (a disaster market recently), see stocks at all time highs again ala 2007).

No one argues that Fed can influence money supply, which can (hopefully) have effect on inflation. The relation is far from direct, however. Think of effects of other factors, for example increases in savings rate or decreases in productivity.

I'll also ignore the fact that Greenspan openly admitted the Fed has the direct ability to increase or decrease inflation, and can cause bubbles or pop them. He of all people should know.

This pesky "admission" concept again -- what does it have to do with anything? Copernicus admitted that earth did not revolve around the sun, he of all people should know.

It's not an assertion, it's a fact supported by extreme amounts of data.

And that's another assertion, so far also unsubstantiated.

If you increase the monetary base and money supply by hundreds of percent over a relatively short period of time, you're going to see a substantial increase in the price of goods in the currency in question. If you 'print' dollars to buy trillions in mortgages and remove them from the market, you're going to limit supply of housing and cause approximately $3 to $4 trillion worth of inflation in just one year (what's happening right now).

Isn't inflation measured in percent, not in trillions of $?

Not to mention simultaneously holding down mortgage rates via the government dominated mortgage market, by holding short term and long term interest rates artificially low by buying the paper that influences that. Then when consumers sell their homes, or take home equity loans, and then spend in any manner or buy anything else or loan their money to banks - the inflation gets discharged directly into the economy.

Not sure what "inflation gets discharged directly into the economy" means.

This is one simple example, there are countless. If today you have one trillion dollars, and tomorrow the Fed prints another trillion dollars, it's obvious what happens.

Actually, it's far from obvious. Unfortunately, we'll never know what would really happen, as Fed is not in the business of printing trillions of dollars. In any case, here's analysis of what would happen that somewhat goes along your apocalyptic scenario: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/deficits-and-the...

So not only do I have vast empirical economic proof not only do I have historical evidence for how it all works, not only do I have obvious math theory that is as simple as addition and subtraction, but I have the Fed openly admitting the scale of the inflation it has caused.

So far all you had were words.

How many proof articles would you like on the topic?

So far you failed to produce a single one.

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#166
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would lend out your bitcoins at interest, just like you do with any other currency. Unless you want to be a direct lender, you'd still use a bank. Maybe the EU's policies led to the propagation of all the bad assets, but Cypriot banks were offering a higher interest to attract deposits. You can't get that higher interest without investing in somewhat riskier assets. Even assuming the EU policy is terrible (I am n…

Lending is one thing, storing your wealth in a currency under ZIRP is another. I'm lucky that I at least get dividends on my savings being with a local credit union. And only half of their banking system consisted of foreign deposits (not to mention most of those deposits were able to leave the country via loopholes). Where does that leave the individuals and small business native to cyprus? Is it such a horrid idea…

If you ever read The Wealth of Nations, it has a long history of the value of silver(commonly used for money at the time), and the effect new mines had on the value (overnight 1/3 value loss not unheard of). There is essentially nothing in the world guaranteed to hold or increase in value that we use or have ever used as money.

If you are lucky enough to have money over the limit, at least in the US, you can open accounts at different banks to try and have more insurance. For the native Cypriot running a legit business, yes, it's unfortunate, but that's what has led to a central banking system. If you look back a hundred years, bank runs were much more common, but people still had to use banks.

I don't offer financial advice, but it certainly would seem that maintaining bank accounts above the insured limit in any of the countries you listed is very high risk at the moment.

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#167
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lending is one thing, storing your wealth in a currency under ZIRP is another. I'm lucky that I at least get dividends on my savings being with a local credit union. And only half of their banking system consisted of foreign deposits (not to mention most of those deposits were able to leave the country via loopholes). Where does that leave the individuals and small business native to cyprus? Is it such a horrid idea…

If you ever read The Wealth of Nations, it has a long history of the value of silver(commonly used for money at the time), and the effect new mines had on the value (overnight 1/3 value loss not unheard of). There is essentially nothing in the world guaranteed to hold or increase in value that we use or have ever used as money. If you are lucky enough to have money over the limit, at least in the US, you can open acc…

>I don't offer financial advice, but it certainly would seem that maintaining bank accounts above the insured limit in any of the countries you listed is very high risk at the moment.

I'd agree, but i'd like to add that one would have to be fooling themselves if this high risk is anything but contained to the PIIGS or the EU.

ex: Some british pension accounts were hit: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/cyprus/9944...

I guess in any case, having any bank account over "insurance" limits in any country isn't sound (as we've seen that even those limits can be changed [usually changed or able to be removed at any time like what the FDIC announced in December]). But then again, people don't usually act in a logical manner (which I guess in a weird sense they shouldn't since any currency is ultimately built upon trust or belief which is not directly connected to logic).

I guess it's just better to stick to the basics (food,water,shelter) and let the bankers worry about when their fellow citizens or russian oligarchs will come for their heads which according to history, eventually happens :P

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#168
post #77
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if some country (and as you say Europe) where still primary mode of parking your earnings is banks what are other options to play safe in case such a seizure happens? Real estate is one I can see. What else? Gold, you will have to keep in a bank in the end. What about shares, aren't they somehow related to sth deposited in a bank? I mean, how do you safeguard your savings then?

The idea of "safeguarded savings" is a conceptual abstraction. Think of a barter economy. I trade you a loaf of bread I baked for a haircut. Where did we get the idea that I should be able to bank that haircut, and come to you 10, 20 years later and still get that haircut? It's a view that comes from seeing money as something of intrinsic value, rather than what it really is: a proxy that decouples transactions in wh…

you can put it more simply by just realizing that money is essentially a promise for some goods or services made by somebody, to be delivered at some point in the future. I.e., keeping money is a liability.

If a society (or a large number of individuals/institutes, incl gov'ts) fails to deliver on their promise of goods and services, then the money looses its value. And this is what seems to be happening a lot more everywhere - more and more money is promised (or printed), but the amount of goods and services hasn't really grown in proportion, and so at some point this is gonna have to fail somewhere...

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#169

By the by, doesn't that bank logo look kind of familiar? Engadget's logo was inspired by the RSS logo, but this one doesn't even try to be original. http://i.imgur.com/WKZEMiQ.png

It's not an especially unique form http://www.gnsegroup.com/images/logo/TelemedLogo02_News.jpg. Do you think Engadget did it first?

Re: “My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.”

#170
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Greek's insolvency impacted Cyprus greatly, because a large portion of the Cyprus population are of Greek descent. Just to add a little context to this. Cyprus is a divided country, as a result of a conflict in 1973 between Turkish Cypriots (and Turkey) and Greek Cypriots (and Greece). The Greek Cypriots favoured unification with Greece (Enosis) whereas the Turkish minority felt threatened by this (due to various t…

Cyprus is historically a part of Greece but on a map it is closer to Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and even Egypt. It is just like the Falklands in that respect, an outpost of one nation that is going to be geographically contested and eventually (just like the Falklands) it will probably be annexed by one of the countries above (most likely Turkey). The only reason these situations persist is because the na…

> Cyprus is historically a part of Greece but on a map it is closer to Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and even Egypt.

Actually aside from a small part of the Bronze Age, Cyprus was never a part of Greece. It had been Ptolemaic Egyptian, Byzantine and changed hands between Knights Templar and various others before becoming Venetian then finally succumbing to Ottoman invasion in the 1570s. The Ottomans leased Cyprus to the British in exchange for guarantees of support against Russian invasions of the Ottoman Empire, but the successor state of the Republic of Turkey relinquished all claims to Cyprus, leaving it a British Crown Colony. Many of the Turkish Cypriots originally came in the Ottoman period and the idea of Enosis was formed under Greek nationalism (Hellenism had been promoted throughout Cyprus long before modern Greece's existence) during this period before and just after the Greek independence war. It is this, the subsequent neglect and the approach taken under British rule (and subsequent independence) that led to the problems of a divided Cyprus today.

In this respect, it is absolutely nothing like the Falklands whatsoever. If anything, the situation between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus is more like the situation between the UK and Ireland with respect to Northern Ireland. Modern Turkey has no interest whatsoever in annexing Cyprus, only protecting ethnic Turks (which it is bound to do by it's constitution).

> The only reason these situations persist is because the nations involved are still able to wage war at a distance, if Greece should go bankrupt (or even if the Greek-Cypriot part of Cyprus would go under) there would likely be a re-alignment of interests such that the cost of maintaining the outpost by force no longer outweighed the benefits.

You're really off the mark here. Greece in general has no interest in enosis. It's generally been something pushed by Greek nationalists both in Cyprus and Greece but both countries have their own problems at the moment that wouldn't be solved by unification with each other. To be clear, Greece and Turkey were both dragged into conflict because of the Treaty of Guarantee agreed in Zurich, making Turkey, Greece and Britain the guarantors of certain elements of Cyprus' status as an independent country.

> If Greece and/or Cyprus would end up being unable to maintain the status of the Greek portion of Cyprus Turkey would have to weigh the advantages of going all in on Cyprus versus the disadvantages of cutting a lot of ties with the EU, which arguably has been stringing along Turkey with the promise of membership without the intention of actually following through on that promise for a very long time now.

Turkey would not go all in on Cyprus. They don't want a war. To be honest if TRNC told Turkey they wanted to join Cyprus, I'm sure Turkey would welcome it with open arms. Turkey wants whatever the people of TRNC want, just as the UK would support whatever decision Northern Ireland would make on self determination.

As for EU membership, I go to Turkey quite often and I've seen no interest in EU membership for a very long time at the political and street level. Most Turkish businesses like the common market but don't see why Turkey should join the Euro (and think they've dodged a bullet), and resent France's anti-Turkish posturing.

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