Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 205 posts

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#161

Post by hazov »

cs702 wrote: post #35

As usual on HN, any submission about Bitcoin is met with concerned comments about its high volatility, present impracticality as a currency, disadvantages versus precious metals, current concentration of transactions in a single exchange (MtGox), potential for market manipulation by governments and/or speculators, etc. This is analogous to being present at the creation of the World Wide Web, but instead of getting ex…

My problem with it right now is that it gives too much advantage to early adopters (I have some from some years ago), it always tries to make the situation sounds fair (in the FAQs) but for me it's just a seignoriage with other name.

I hate the fact that it can be used by child pornographers or terrorists but hey, so can gold, a Ben Franklin or a €500 bill. A feature of technology is that it's neutral, it can be used for good as well.

I have no problem with the idea, I think cryptocurrency and electronic money is the future but in my view bitcoin will just be one among many.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#162

Post by apapli »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #34
elmuchoprez wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see BTC as a proof-of-concept experiment right now more than anything else. And I think it's still too early to tell what it's actually proving.

The billion dollar question- is Bitcoin Myspace or Facebook?

Gee I hope it is neither, as a party who intends to go long on BTC.

Facebook has indeed proved to be much more successful than MySpace but I still think its valuation will settle far below what it is today.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#163

Post by andrewljohnson »

michaelochurch wrote: post #160

I'm going to start calling it ShitCoin. Not because it's a scam and I hate it, but in the sense of "Oh, shit ". (BitCoin is doing well right now because of the Cyprus crisis.) I have no clue about its directional future, but I can see it being, for the next 10 years, a way of betting against the world-- a distinction that gold used to have.

Even better though, it's like gold you can get for cheap for now. Assuming people don't stop using bitcoins, it's hard to imagine bitcoins not appreciating over time.

Either a major calamity like government intervention will end BitCoin, or it will be supplanted by different technology, or BitCoins will appreciate for decades. They will either be worth zero, or a lot in my estimation.

Disclosure: I own 20 bitcoins.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#164

Post by 0majors »

bwood wrote: post #126
0majors wrote: post #39

While I can appreciate the need for the Bitcoin model I refuse to take part of it due to level of fraud involved. How much Bitcoins have been acquired by malicious bot-nets and held by small number of black hats? How much of the value is directly linked to drug trade or worse? Sure, similar arguments can be made about using cash but there are fundamental moral issues with Bitcoin I can't agree with. I would like to b…

I can't give you any numbers to support or refute your suspicions. However, if you genuinely believe that there is a need for something like Bitcoin, honest individuals using Bitcoin will help legitimize the currency and hopefully drive down the level of fraud and other unsavoury behaviour. If that is your only objection to it, then presumably honest folk like yourself staying away from Bitcoin are also preventing it…

I do understand that illegal activities being paid with Bitcoins is something that comes with the benefits of the system. You are correct, the ratio of legal/illegal activity will probably improve with time as more legitimate business will be conducted with Bitcoins. At the same time it's worth being concious of the fact that at the moment the biggest use of this tool is paying for criminal activities. If this is true, we can't pretend that bringing in more "real" money to the pool doesn't mostly aid criminals.

What I see as "fundamentally immoral" about Bitcoin is the fact how so much of it has been acquired by black hats through bot-net and hacking of exchanges. They OWN a fixed percentage of this economy thus their net worth increases every time fresh "real" money is brought in anywhere in the pool. There is no way around it that I can see.

To give an analogy, I would personally not eat in a restaurant if I knew it is co-owned by local drug dealers even if the food was delicious.

Obviously I can see the positive side of having the ability to process payments without going through the government. This discussion is not black and white for me at all.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#165

Post by wmf »

tocomment wrote: post #121
rmc wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know there is no limit on the number of transactions, but there is a limit on the total number of possible bitcoins (about 21 million IIRC)

So when a node picks up a block to process it gathers up all of the pending transactions at that time?

Yes. (More like the node creates a block containing all pending transactions, but that's a nit.)

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#166

Post by slapresta »

waffle_ss wrote: post #47
cs702 wrote: post #35

As usual on HN, any submission about Bitcoin is met with concerned comments about its high volatility, present impracticality as a currency, disadvantages versus precious metals, current concentration of transactions in a single exchange (MtGox), potential for market manipulation by governments and/or speculators, etc. This is analogous to being present at the creation of the World Wide Web, but instead of getting ex…

There are some real concerns with Bitcoin. For example, I was going to write an app that accepts Bitcoins as payment. However, the problem is that the amount of time it takes for a transaction to become "verified," i.e. be part of the official block chain, can take up to 10 minutes. What am I supposed to present to the user during this time? Am I supposed to tell them that their payment may or may not have been accep…

> However, the problem is that the amount of time it takes for a transaction to become "verified," i.e. be part of the official block chain, can take up to 10 minutes.

It actually can take a lot more than 10 minutes. For all you know, it could take forever. 10 minutes is the average.

> What am I supposed to present to the user during this time? Am I supposed to tell them that their payment may or may not have been accepted, please check back in ten minutes or wait for an email?

That person is paying you with Bitcoins. They already have an idea of what a network confirmation is. Tell them you're waiting for N network confirmations. Send them an email when the transaction is verified by your node, and a second email when the transaction has enough network confirmations.

> How would you handle this if it were a real person in a real store, at a register checking out?

It depends on what you're doing. If it were a Starbucks, for example, I would serve the coffee right away, without waiting for blockchain verification. It's unlikely that someone who has more than 50% of the Bitcoin network is using that massive power to double-spend on a Chai Tea Latte.

If I needed more confirmation, I could send the transaction to some trusted miner nodes, and see if there's consensus. If those nodes say they will include the transaction in their next mined block, then I can close the deal without waiting for the blockchain to verify it. Of course, this can be done automatically.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#167

Post by taligent »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #156
drusenko wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how the credit card system works. The merchant first makes an "Authorization" which is a promise by the credit card company to pay the merchant that amount of money within the next 90 days. When they make that promise, they check the customer's account to verify that there are enough funds and then deduct that amount from the available funds. Assuming everything else goes as expected, the merchant then iss…

So, basically what you're saying is: Bitcoin: * funds transfer: instant * fraud vulnerability window: 1 hour * fraud exposure: reversal of transaction Credit card: * funds transfer: 24 hours * fraud vulnerability window: 60 days * fraud exposure: reversal of transaction + $25

The funds transfer/settlement for credit cards can be as short as a few hours as some banks offer same day settlement. And you are being a bit disingenuous with the fraud vulnerability window as chargebacks allow for dispute resolution e.g. where is the item I paid for whilst Bitcoins don't.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#169

Post by michaelochurch »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #163
michaelochurch wrote: post #160

I'm going to start calling it ShitCoin. Not because it's a scam and I hate it, but in the sense of "Oh, shit ". (BitCoin is doing well right now because of the Cyprus crisis.) I have no clue about its directional future, but I can see it being, for the next 10 years, a way of betting against the world-- a distinction that gold used to have.

Even better though, it's like gold you can get for cheap for now. Assuming people don't stop using bitcoins, it's hard to imagine bitcoins not appreciating over time. Either a major calamity like government intervention will end BitCoin, or it will be supplanted by different technology, or BitCoins will appreciate for decades. They will either be worth zero, or a lot in my estimation. Disclosure: I own 20 bitcoins.

It's unstable. There's no barrier to entry. I could make a competing product called ZitCoin with a different inflation/deflation profile. At some point, it comes down to weird, fickle, and not especially meaningful brand effects. Then it's just speculation.

If you buy BitCoin, you're betting on the prestige of its being the first. Do people even know what the first fiat currency is? Or care?

People who sell at the top of BitCoin are going to make a lot of money, but for the long-term value, I'm betting on zero.

Re: Bitcoin Hits $1 Billion

#170

Post by zeteo »

cs702 wrote: post #35

As usual on HN, any submission about Bitcoin is met with concerned comments about its high volatility, present impracticality as a currency, disadvantages versus precious metals, current concentration of transactions in a single exchange (MtGox), potential for market manipulation by governments and/or speculators, etc. This is analogous to being present at the creation of the World Wide Web, but instead of getting ex…

Your comment amounts to a rather naive "we should get excited about Bitcoin, it has great potential and critics are shortsighted". And it is precisely this excitement (with calls for more excitement) that generates Bitcoin's current value. But where will the decline stop once the first run inevitably occurs? All other currencies have a bottom floor that they can't fall below, be it either intrinsic value (jewelry, plate, industrial uses for precious metals) or the fact that they are legal tender in some country (and must be acquired to pay debts or taxes there). Unless and until Bitcoin becomes legal tender in some jurisdiction, it is very vulnerable to a sudden death spiral in its value. Interestingly enough, MMO worlds are probably prime candidates to become such "jurisdictions".
Post reply on HN