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Announcing HackStars

techstars.org

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Re: Announcing HackStars

#81

Post by dantheman »

BobbyH wrote: post #68
akeefer wrote: post #19

In general, any sort of unpaid internship biases against people who aren't well enough off to work for free (i.e. whose parents won't support them while they do). It's really a kind of class discrimination that prevents people from lower socioeconomic standing from having much of a chance at certain jobs (like in the finance world) that tend to rely heavily on unpaid internships. One thing I've always liked about my…

Besides any ethical considerations about class-discrimination, unpaid internships are illegal unless the intern gets class credit, because it is a violation of minimum wage laws. Calling a job an "unpaid internship" does not revoke the minimum wage laws. However, these laws are not enforced, which results in more and more companies offering unpaid internships...

No that is incorrect. If you are not being paid then you are volunteering your time, minimum wage laws only apply when you are being paid.

Re: Announcing HackStars

#82

Post by BobbyH »

dantheman wrote: post #81
BobbyH wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides any ethical considerations about class-discrimination, unpaid internships are illegal unless the intern gets class credit, because it is a violation of minimum wage laws. Calling a job an "unpaid internship" does not revoke the minimum wage laws. However, these laws are not enforced, which results in more and more companies offering unpaid internships...

No that is incorrect. If you are not being paid then you are volunteering your time, minimum wage laws only apply when you are being paid.

This article makes it clear:

"In order to qualify as an unpaid internship, the requirement is simple: no work can be performed that is of any benefit at all to the company. That is, you can not deliver mail, sort files, file papers, organize a person’s calendar, conduct market research, write reports, watch television shows and report on them, read scripts, schedule interviews, or any other job that assists the employer in any way in running their business."

http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/1...

Re: Announcing HackStars

#83

Post by defendersown »

I think that there are some people on this forum that are missing the point. Just because you are a hacker, does not mean that you have the ingredients to make a successful company. As some have already noted, this is a program for those people who were rejected from TechStars initially to get into the program and glean most of the benefits by donating some of their time. Fifteen hours per week is only two hours per day, and that time could be spent simply providing another set of hacker eyes to a new feature (not building the whole thing from scratch), or another techie to bounce your idea for server architecture off of. What I don't understand is why they do not provide this same system for business types to "hack" into TechStars.

Re: Announcing HackStars

#84

Post by swalkergibson »

I think that there are some people on this forum that are missing the point. Just because you are a hacker, does not mean that you have the ingredients to make a successful company. As some have already noted, this is a program for those people who were rejected from TechStars initially to get into the program and glean most of the benefits by donating some of their time. Fifteen hours per week is only two hours per day, and that time could be spent simply providing another set of hacker eyes to a new feature (not building the whole thing from scratch), or another techie to bounce your idea for server architecture off of. What I don't understand is why they do not provide this same system for business types to "hack" into TechStars.

Re: Announcing HackStars

#86

Post by brianculler »

vegashacker wrote: post #67
gojomo wrote: post #12

Even if this program deserves a critical assessment, that doesn't belong in a sarcastic headline.

Agreed. Headlines are not supposed to editorialize. The HN editors should fix this one.

Yes, lets sanitize and PC everything, instead of calling things like they are. Read all the other comments in this thread.

Re: Announcing HackStars

#87

Post by mechanical_fish »

webwright wrote: post #79
mechanical_fish wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's a good plan. But it doesn't exactly erase the unfairness of the practice. Lack of sleep and stress will cost you both happiness and performance, though you may not recognize that when you're nineteen ;)

How is something consensual unfair? If a person places a low value on their time or a high value on the experience that will be gained, it seems like it might be a reasonable trade. This seems especially true if the person giving up their time isn't in dire straits... i.e. If you offer to pay pennies and breadcrumbs to a starving man, that might not be cool. If you offer a good unpiad experience to a hacker/designer…

My response to this has turned into something the size of the Lord of the Rings, so I'll blog it instead of clogging this page.

I need to get back to practicing the banjo. Perhaps one day we can hold a jam. The fiddle is awesome; I recommend the works of Darol Anger, and if you're near the Bay Area watch out for his concerts. Get on the Freight and Salvage mailing list if they have one. (I miss that place, although they have plenty of equivalents in Massachusetts.)

Re: Announcing HackStars

#88

Post by mechanical_fish »

physcab wrote: post #69
mechanical_fish wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they just want to see how much you enjoy doing the work. Here's what I'd say to that: "I enjoy doing work that adds value . If you have something valuable for me to do for your company, pay me what it is worth. If not, I'll be happy to sit in your air-conditioned office writing free software that has value for me . And then you will be able to see how much I enjoy doing that." But you probably shouldn't say that out…

Wow. You are very passionate about this aren't you? (I'm not being sarcastic, I really admire you for voicing this). I guess I just don't see this practice as unethical because if I look at the whole spectrum of unethical behaviors, this seems very minor to me. Does that make it excusable? Probably not. But to me this is just about acquiring a skill which I previously did not have. It's not about recognition or compe…

You are very passionate about this aren't you?

I went to graduate school. A Ph.D. program is like being an unpaid intern for six years.

(And, yet, in some ways it's better. There is some pay. And a Ph.D. is a regular old-fashioned apprenticeship program: The bad news is that you're a slave, but the good news is that your adviser has a fairly strong incentive to help you graduate. The commitment goes both ways.

And, of course, if you've got an apartment and a web connection you can teach yourself to be a professional programmer -- especially if you already have a CS degree -- but you can't say the same for semiconductor engineering.)

Re: Announcing HackStars

#89

Post by gojomo »

BobbyH wrote: post #68
akeefer wrote: post #19

In general, any sort of unpaid internship biases against people who aren't well enough off to work for free (i.e. whose parents won't support them while they do). It's really a kind of class discrimination that prevents people from lower socioeconomic standing from having much of a chance at certain jobs (like in the finance world) that tend to rely heavily on unpaid internships. One thing I've always liked about my…

Besides any ethical considerations about class-discrimination, unpaid internships are illegal unless the intern gets class credit, because it is a violation of minimum wage laws. Calling a job an "unpaid internship" does not revoke the minimum wage laws. However, these laws are not enforced, which results in more and more companies offering unpaid internships...

IANAL, but I believe a strict literal enforcement of minimum-wage laws also prohibits founders working for their own corporation without salary. (Equity doesn't count for minimum wage calculations.)

Much of the bootstrapped-startup culture we celebrate may thus rely on lax enforcement of these laws.

Re: Announcing HackStars

#90

Post by BobbyH »

gojomo wrote: post #89
BobbyH wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides any ethical considerations about class-discrimination, unpaid internships are illegal unless the intern gets class credit, because it is a violation of minimum wage laws. Calling a job an "unpaid internship" does not revoke the minimum wage laws. However, these laws are not enforced, which results in more and more companies offering unpaid internships...

IANAL, but I believe a strict literal enforcement of minimum-wage laws also prohibits founders working for their own corporation without salary. (Equity doesn't count for minimum wage calculations.) Much of the bootstrapped-startup culture we celebrate may thus rely on lax enforcement of these laws.

Good point, but only employees must be paid the minimum wage. If you founded the company, you are not an employee because you direct your work. The IRS says an employee is "anyone who performs services for an organization is an employee if the organization can control what will be done and how it will be done" (http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=131137,00.html).
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