The Positive Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Positive Programmer

#111

Post by jasonkester » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 2:14 PM UTC

abraxasz wrote: post #109

ruswick wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there is a clear distinction between pure negativity and "snark" or sardonicism. It is possible to be genuinely, objectively critical of things without being arrogant or sarcastic. Criticism is a necessary facet of discussion, and is indicative of a thoughtful community. "Asshole-sim" is not. I'm of the belief that the discussion on HN tends towards the former. >This behavior sometimes doesn't get swatte…

"Skepticism, contrarianism, criticism, etc. are incredibly valuable tools and are fundamental to HN and to discourse in general. One should not have the merits of their ideas judged solely on the "tone" articulated by them, and HN should certainly not seek to create institutionalized positivity." Completely agree with you. I've seen way too many comments that where downvoted only because of the tone (even though the…

You're mistaken. A comment with good ideas presented in an insulting/snarky/offensive tone should get downvoted here. In that rare case, it's often helpful to write a comment explaining why it was downvoted (perhaps even with a link to the guidelines), and encourage the poster to rewrite it in a tone that fits the room it was spoken in.

Some people will understand, rewrite, and become productive members of the community. Others will get offended, write back with an angry rant about censorship or something, and with luck find themselves hellbanned. Those are the people who just aren't ever going to be welcome here. Fortunately, the rest of the internet seems designed for them to fit right in.

Re: The Positive Programmer

#112

Post by RyanMcGreal » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 2:20 PM UTC

dgesang wrote: post #79

groby_b wrote: post #28

Or maybe we complain, to take the example of sexism, because there is a real problem. That needs to be addressed. And given that the first two items you address are code of conduct & sexism, I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear, not because I think all white males are mean-spirited misogynists. Most of them are pretty nice people, in my experienc…

> white male programmer > And then let's fix them. Ok, so stop with your sexists & racist stereotypes.

White male programmers do have a tendency to be tone deaf to discrimination. Not because they're white or male (that would be a sexist/racist stereotype), but because white-and-male is the dominant demographic in our society, and people who are part of the dominant demographic tend to be less aware and conscious of the comparative disadvantages faced by people who are not part of that demographic.

Re: The Positive Programmer

#113

Post by Dewie » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 2:28 PM UTC

jader201 wrote: post #10

> The first (and only) thing that immediately came to mind was that I wanted to be a better person: I wanted to be smarter, more successful, and happy. When I read this, the first thing I thought of is, "Well that's your problem." To me, based on my experiences and what I've read and observed from other people, many people find the most happiness from focusing less on oneself, and focusing more on others. What can I…

Focusing on others is great, if it gives you purpose and it's of your own volition (of course most people will preach to you to be selfless - your selflessness might indirectly benefit them...).

Re: The Positive Programmer

#114

Post by capdiz » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #110

ruswick wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there is a clear distinction between pure negativity and "snark" or sardonicism. It is possible to be genuinely, objectively critical of things without being arrogant or sarcastic. Criticism is a necessary facet of discussion, and is indicative of a thoughtful community. "Asshole-sim" is not. I'm of the belief that the discussion on HN tends towards the former. >This behavior sometimes doesn't get swatte…

Observe this thread for dozens of examples of comments that just aren't high enough quality to be on this site: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5453757 Anger, silly jokes, one-liners and memes are all over that thread. The fact that so much of it will still be there at the end of the day is the problem we're facing. Compare to the discussion on this item, with people stating real arguments using entire paragraph…

Thanks for the link. I remember the first time i made a really silly comment without reading the full story i was put into place (downvoted ruthlessly) by the community and i knew i had done something terrible. This is the post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2825177. From then on i really took sometime without commenting on hn not because i was angry, but because i was scared of being downvoted. It taught me i needed to get my facts right before commenting on hn however much harm i never meant to cause.

Re: The Positive Programmer

#115

Post by obstacle1 » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 2:49 PM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #92

obstacle1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to come off as _extraordinarily_ abrasive, though I do mean to convey my sentiment strongly. I do not think that overlooking the actual content of what somebody says in the name of "thinking positive" is good, or healthy, or itself positive at all. When somebody says the equivalent of "X group of people have Y attribute", they are making a category distinction. This is what the person I originally respon…

> When somebody says the equivalent of "X group of people have Y attribute", they are making a category distinction. This is what the person I originally responded to said. So, look, here's the problem: that never happened. I shouldn't have to quote something that's just a few comments up, but here it is: "... I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear…

>So, look, here's the problem: that never happened

Yes it did. You quoted the very sentence. Twice. Now try parsing it.

>From that you read...

Because that is what it says. Here, let me break it down.

"Of course": of course

a white male programmer": a person who fits in the categories "white" and "programmer"

"wouldn't see an issue with that" can't see sexism or code of conduct violations.

The category: white male programmers. The attribute: blind to sexism and code of conduct violations. Necessarily.

>The post you responded to was a bit of a backpedaling from that utterly inoffensive statement.

That statement is orders of magnitude more offensive than making a joke about a dongle. Classifying an entire sex and race and telling them (or others) what they see is the road to atrocity. And it wasn't a backpedal, it was a rationalization/justification referring directly to the OP (>I don't accuse, or segregate, or treat the other party as lesser.).

>That sentiment or anything like it exists nowhere in anything that was said

That sentiment is the _basis_ for what was said. OP felt (s)he had superior knowledge and insight to white males and used this position to explain to them how they perceive the world.

I'm not even going to comment on your trivialization of mental health issues. Nice one!

>but as a white male I find nothing the least bit challenging in that

Okay then, enjoy your life. Stay positive!

Re: The Positive Programmer

#116

Post by Cushman » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

obstacle1 wrote: post #115

Cushman wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When somebody says the equivalent of "X group of people have Y attribute", they are making a category distinction. This is what the person I originally responded to said. So, look, here's the problem: that never happened. I shouldn't have to quote something that's just a few comments up, but here it is: "... I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear…

>So, look, here's the problem: that never happened Yes it did. You quoted the very sentence. Twice. Now try parsing it. >From that you read... Because that is what it says. Here, let me break it down. "Of course": of course a white male programmer": a person who fits in the categories "white" and "programmer" "wouldn't see an issue with that" can't see sexism or code of conduct violations. The category: white male pr…

I'm not sure what to tell you, except that, like the post you replied to said, "Of course [you] would think that" is a common rhetorical device in idiomatic English that in this context really, really does not mean what you seem to want it to mean. Your parent clearly does not think nor did express any statement of the form "all X are Y", and took great pains to make that, and their actual point, clear, and your "parsing" of that one sentence to make it into something close is exactly what the damn blog post is about.

I'm sorry that you feel I've trivialized mental health issues, but I will say that I've known psychotic people IRL, and again, I used the phrase "slightly psychotic" quite deliberately.

Re: The Positive Programmer

#117

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 6:40 PM UTC

duaneb wrote: post #96

obstacle1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to come off as _extraordinarily_ abrasive, though I do mean to convey my sentiment strongly. I do not think that overlooking the actual content of what somebody says in the name of "thinking positive" is good, or healthy, or itself positive at all. When somebody says the equivalent of "X group of people have Y attribute", they are making a category distinction. This is what the person I originally respon…

I think you need to read the post again. It's not unreasonable to think that white males don't necessarily understand minority issues as they are vastly the majority in this community. He never claimed it was inherent or universal or even insurmountable. I don't even view what he said as negative, just trying to remind people of their potential biases. Anyway, get off your high horse. We all stereotype, it's natural,…

[deleted]

Re: The Positive Programmer

#118

Post by __--__ » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 9:16 PM UTC

greghinch wrote: post #66

I've been working as a developer for about 10 years, and was involved in some tech communities for about 6 or 7 years prior to that (early high school, doing things like LAN parties, Linux install fests, and generally socializing amongst the "nerd" set). If there's an overwhelmingly common personality defect I've seen amongst tech aficionados, it's a proclivity towards the negative. My observation is that people with…

Fiction writers tend to be pretty negative people as well. I think writing and programming have one very important thing in common: most people can ignore the ugly parts of humanity. Writers and programmers spend years staring into it. Writers do so to better understand people and write believable characters. Programmers do so to better understand people's behaviors so we can solve their problems.

I work in social games. Nothing makes me more negative than running a user test and finding out that treating your users as if they were mentally deficient 4 year olds results in more people coming back to play again and more people willing to give us their money.

Re: The Positive Programmer

#119

Post by rpgmaker » Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 10:57 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #97

The more we tolerate this here, the more it will become the norm. HN's most attractive feature from day one has always been the positive, intelligent, supportive community. Those are not traits you tend to find in your typical 9-5 programmer (in my experience, at least), and are the exact opposite of what you find in the communities that most of our early adopters fled from (Slashdot was already hopeless by 2007, and…

Also, many of the issues that the OP touched are serious that need to be addressed by the community (i.e. sexism). Discussing this issues doesn't make us negative people, is just that those are real problems that need to be solved.