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Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

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101–107 of 107 posts

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Look, just because it's in your pocket and you get to use it as soon as you leave the store does not mean you own it." So who owns it? When last I checked, there was no line of credit, I am allowed to sell the phone to someone else without informing the carrier, and I am responsible for repairing any damage or replacing the phone if it is rendered non-functional. It sounds like I paid the carrier's price, signed a c…

Why don't you read your contract and pay particular attention to the bit where it talks about transfer of title? As someone who doesn't sign these kinds of contracts and hasn't for years, I'm not sure what the exact position of the carrier is without downloading and analyzing a phone contract, which I don't feel like doing right now. The differences from leasing a car are for obvious reasons. If you don't make the pa…

Why don't you read your contract and pay particular attention to the bit where it talks about transfer of title? As someone who doesn't sign these kinds of contracts and hasn't for years, I'm not sure what the exact position of the carrier is without downloading and analyzing a phone contract, which I don't feel like doing right now.

More like you're wrong, and are just assuming no one will take the time to read a contract and call you on it.

I just read through the T-Mobile contract (http://www.t-mobile.com/Templates/Popup.aspx?PAsset=Ftr_Ftr_...), and there is no mention of title at all. They do try to restrict what you can do with your device while it is on their network (including prohibiting you from "modifying the device", which should include unlocking), but nowhere do they claim ownership of the device.

The phone is not loaned/leased to you. There is no lien on it. The carrier has no recourse to repossess the phone. The early termination fee is there, of course, but is entirely unrelated from a contractual point of view. If you break your contract, they have the right and ability to collect the early termination fee, and nothing else.

As an aside, I'm not sure why you'd consider it so impractical for the carrier to repossess the phone if someone breaks contract. It's certainly feasible, and they could likely refurb and resell the phone for something on the order of the early termination fee. But yes, that would take more effort than sending a bill, so they have chosen not to consider the phone on loan. It's yours, contract or not.

But none of this is particularly relevant. The question at hand is about whether or not unlocking your phone is a DMCA violation and thus a criminal act. Depending on the particular carrier, it may or may not be a violation of your contract to unlock your phone, but that should be a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Why are you so hell-bent on ceding power to companies that have been granted mono/duopolies by the government, and are making use of a precious public resource (radio spectrum)? Do you seriously care so little for your rights as a customer -- hell, as a human being -- that you'd prefer that modifying a device you own (yes, own) is a felony? I just don't understand why anyone would side with one of the carriers... ever. For the most part they are as anti-consumer as companies can be. Individuals have little way to right that imbalance without government intervention.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#102
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a discount. You can buy an unlocked GSM phone and get a SIM only plan that costs half as much as the regular plans. The total cost is cheaper compared to how much you pay over a two year contract.

Where do you buy this plan? AT&T and Verizon are willing to sell me plans that cost just as much as on-contract plans. T-Mobile is willing to sell me much cheaper plans, but randomly loses service all around my city all the time.

I use one from Straight Talk, which just resells AT&T's service.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#103
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm astonished that people overwhelmingly believe this falsehood. Maybe that "falsehood" doesn't conform to your beliefs about what sort of unlocking should be allowed, but I think the quote you highlighted is a reasonable one. There are legitimate reasons to allow restrictions on what can be done with subsidized devices which are still bound by a service agreement. Your comment suggests that you're astonished that…

>There are legitimate reasons to allow restrictions on what can be done with subsidized devices which are still bound by a service agreement. Like what? As long as the customer is paying the service fee as they agreed to, the carrier shouldn't care if someone wants to use their device on another network. That means less network congestion and less necessary infrastructure, with the possible downside of fewer overage…

Not related to to carrier lock-in, but Kindle Fires are sold at a subsidised price, with the money made up by advertising in the OS. This advertising can be disabled for a fee. If customers were allowed to alter their device in any way they wanted, they could simply remove the ads without paying, and this business model would not be tenable.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#104
post #11
post #4

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy locked phones. Once the consumers know the power they have in their hands, change will come easier.

I'm torn on the issue of buying locked vs unlocked. I have a family to support, so I don't have $500 or more to spend on an unlocked iPhone. Even if I had the money, I live in the US, and I haven't traveled outside of the country in over 10 years. Finally, there is no monthly discount on service if you bring an unlocked phone to a carrier, so that's the third strike. I'll continue to buy a new locked device every cou…

You can get a pretty awesome brand new, not-just-released android phone for $100. Or you can get a used phone in good condition on ebay for much lower (even a used iPhone). Sorry but you have a bit of a yuppie dilemma here. There are tons of off-contract, much cheaper options, but not if you only buy directly from Apple.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still the inertia of a massive status quo. It takes time to ramp up new distribution channels, supply chains, etc. It also takes time to convince customers to change suppliers, it takes time to design competing equipment, etc. The time taken is even longer if the gap in profitability between what is and what ought to be is relatively small from the perspective of a potential disrupter. I could maybe accept th…

Agreed, it could take time. And with a small gap it may never happen, but that just means the pain point isn't all that painful. Otherwise the gap would be larger. I guess it depends how eager you are to have government get involved and attempt to make things right. I generally have little faith in government meddling resulting in a net positive.

that just means the pain point isn't all that painful.

This is, unfortunately, another fallacy of the market. In real life, the ones with the most pain are often the ones with the least ability, financial or otherwise, to alleviate it.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#106
post #103
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are legitimate reasons to allow restrictions on what can be done with subsidized devices which are still bound by a service agreement. Like what? As long as the customer is paying the service fee as they agreed to, the carrier shouldn't care if someone wants to use their device on another network. That means less network congestion and less necessary infrastructure, with the possible downside of fewer overage…

Not related to to carrier lock-in, but Kindle Fires are sold at a subsidised price, with the money made up by advertising in the OS. This advertising can be disabled for a fee. If customers were allowed to alter their device in any way they wanted, they could simply remove the ads without paying, and this business model would not be tenable.

If you accept that you should be able to do whatever you want with a device that you own as a basic premise, that just means that anyone who tries to use that untenable business model is stupid and they should come up with a better one, not that we need to make special rules so that it becomes tenable. E.g., Kindles could be explicitly rented, rather than sold and subsidized, to exactly the same effect.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not related to to carrier lock-in, but Kindle Fires are sold at a subsidised price, with the money made up by advertising in the OS. This advertising can be disabled for a fee. If customers were allowed to alter their device in any way they wanted, they could simply remove the ads without paying, and this business model would not be tenable.

If you accept that you should be able to do whatever you want with a device that you own as a basic premise, that just means that anyone who tries to use that untenable business model is stupid and they should come up with a better one, not that we need to make special rules so that it becomes tenable. E.g., Kindles could be explicitly rented, rather than sold and subsidized, to exactly the same effect.

> If you accept that you should be able to do whatever you want with a device that you own as a basic premise

Then you are begging the question. If there are business models which some producers and consumers choose to participate in which involve some kind of "no-tampering" clause, then clearly there is some value in allowing such deals. If you don't like them, you're free to not participate.

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