Hire talent, not five years with Java • Hacker News Board

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#91

Post by lani » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #58

InclinedPlane wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it is the difference in programming culture. With startup culture, which has many good aspects, also came the idea that the death march should be the norm. Meaning, 20-somethings should be working 80 hour weeks on a regular basis and projects should be shipped at the soonest possible moment it's even remotely feasible to do so. This sort of working environment has no slack, no capability to operate effectivel…

Yes, this. In the analysis that I'm building up (start here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/gervais-princ... ) it's the tough culture. It gets people to work hard but not smart. Long-term strategic considerations are ignored, it's all about now, now, now. That mentality can be good for short bursts of superhuman productivity, but after a few months, it taps out. The apprenticeship makes sense in the l…

>> . The positive-sum “win-win” outcomes that Technocrats seek exist, and they’re all over the place, but they never come without risk. Once the company decides that creative risks are intolerable, what’s left is zero-sum social-status-driven squabbling.

This line really hepls me crack the code for me

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#92

Post by readme » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:43 PM UTC

lccarrasco wrote: post #76

readme wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be that way... I doubt it though. I don't believe anyone is that innately talented. Try picking up a few musical instruments that you don't know how to play. Genius is learned, not inborn. You need to be lucky enough to win a certain IQ and have all your fingers and toes, but after that it's perspiration. Find me a child prodigy genius who didn't come from a well to-do family who paid for tons of tutoring. F…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan > Without a degree, he left college and continued to pursue independent research in mathematics. At this point in his life, he lived in extreme poverty and was often on the brink of starvation.

>Born at Erode, Madras Presidency (now Tamil Nadu) in a Tamil Brahmin family of Thenkalai Iyengar sect[2][3][4] Ramanujan's introduction to formal mathematics began at age 10.

"Brahmin" are the elite hindu upper class.

I would credit you with contradicting me but you haven't.

However, that's a pretty interesting link. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#93

Post by kevincrane » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:51 PM UTC

winestock wrote: post #87

mapt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's no slack for training time, there's no slack for an empty position, which is what we have now.

Very succinct. If a company can afford to let a position go empty for six months because they "need someone who can hit the ground running," then they don't really need someone who can hit the ground running.

Maybe the difference is not needing to pay someone for those six months when he might just be training still?

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#94

Post by hp50g » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

jowiar wrote: post #22

Once upon a time (1969-ish), my father was hired as a programmer. He was an electrical engineer by training, but had zero programming experience at the time. Given a shortage of programmers, IBM placed an ad in the newspaper, hired smart people, and taught them how to program. Assembly. On mainframes. 40+ years later, companies are in a similar situation, but instead, given a shortage of engineers, they are simply wh…

Spot on.

In the UK this business mentality is rife. You're always seeing it plastered all over the news.

"Students unsuitably trained"

"No skilled workforce"

It's all down to greed and margins which are the two main problems with the "business leaders" as the news describes them as...

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#95

Post by jbelanich » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 5:00 PM UTC

justin_vanw wrote: post #15

Who is the target audience for this sort of advice? The people who will understand this figured it out long before they were in a position to hire other people. It's just obvious and is repeated so much (don't hire for specific experience) that it is a cliche. The people who don't get this will never get it, even if you paste stickers that say it on the windshield of their car and whisper it in their ear as they fall…

There are also people who get it but don't care. Not all companies need, want, or can keep the most talented developers. For them, it is fine to have someone who just has "5 years programming with java". This advice is too general and doesn't apply to everyone.

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#96

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

127001brewer wrote: post #73

michaelochurch wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this. In the analysis that I'm building up (start here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/gervais-princ... ) it's the tough culture. It gets people to work hard but not smart. Long-term strategic considerations are ignored, it's all about now, now, now. That mentality can be good for short bursts of superhuman productivity, but after a few months, it taps out. The apprenticeship makes sense in the l…

...it's all about now, now, now. I think this mentality affects all aspects of our lives and society. How do you disrupt this shortsightedness?

Typical corporate rank cultures are short-sighted because they've lost vision and short-term P&L is the only thing that matters. Risk-reductive management means that no one gets to do anything long-term because no one is trusted to bet that much time on anything.

VC-istan is based on a get-big-or-die mentality. These companies end up with tight deadlines because they're forced to hire so fast. That makes them panicky and stupid when it comes to operational concerns... and it's bad for culture, but no one cares about "culture" in something that exists to be bought by Yahoo in 3 years.

The future isn't going to be built by VC-istan, but by a fleet of ~50,000 small-to-medium businesses formerly called "lifestyle" companies, and the whole ecosystem that grows up to support these "yeoman capitalists". It's going to be built by people that, right now, no one will fund.

The problem is that no one will fund these companies now. Bank loans are good for dry cleaners and restaurants that are unlikely to go to total failure. (Half will be closed in 5 years, but most because their owner-managers could do better elsewhere-- opportunity cost.) VC works for a 5% shot at being a billion-dollar concern. Who funds the 30% chance at becoming a 20-person lifestyle company that, while it never makes a billion, pushes technology forward in a major way? No one, yet. There are "moral hazard"/principal-agent problems to be solved, but they aren't that hard.

I'm actually addressing that in my 17th part of the Gervais / MacLeod series. I'm between jobs (I have offers, but I'm not working right now) and I've had time to really attack this problem. It'll probably be out around 3:00 today.

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#97

Post by michaelochurch » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 5:23 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #83

wfunction wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cool thing with EE is, in a lot of cases, the older you get, the more in demand you become (or at least, not any less wanted), since experience is so crucial in EE. With CS, it seems like every company's looking for young, energetic undergrads fresh out of college who know the latest technologies, in many cases to replace the older people. It's always seemed a little too short-sighted to me... not sure how my gen…

" not sure how my generation of CS majors is going to do in the long term " The way to bet is "very badly", and if you're a conventional salaried employee have your exit strategy well in place by the time you hit 35. Expect to be conventionally unemployable at 40, unless you can hide your age.

The way to bet is "very badly", and if you're a conventional salaried employee have your exit strategy well in place by the time you hit 35. Expect to be conventionally unemployable at 40, unless you can hide your age.

29. I don't expect "conventional employment", as defined by VC-istan or the corporate megaliths, in 11 years. Those will exist, but I don't think they'll be where the exciting action is.

But yes, if you're applying for subordinate positions that any idiot can fill, and you're 40+, you did something wrong. You don't need to be a manager by 40, but you need to be at a level of skill where it's obvious that you don't need traditional "here's work, go do it" management.

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#98

Post by randomdata » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

facorreia wrote: post #71

mortdeus wrote: post #62

If you are not hiring developers based solely on their portfolio of previous projects they authored. You are doing it wrong. Every prerequisite requirement for developers is inherently flawed. 1. A degree. While degrees are nice and prove somebody is considerably "intelligent" and not a "complete waste of time", many talented programmers, especially the ones you want to hire; are fully capable of teaching themselves…

Often the majority of a programmer's portfolio is code that is intellectual property of former employers and they can't show it around. In fact, most times they're not supposed to have that code in their personal laptops.

In my experience, companies are more interested in the code you wrote for fun as hobby than professionally anyway. As long as you have not been encumbered by a "all code you write is owned by us" clause for your entire life, there should still be lots to show.

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#99

Post by March_Hare » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 5:35 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #65

b0rsuk wrote: post #16

In general, this article belongs among the best articles nobody will read. It looks like I might finally get a job as a Django/Python developer after 3 years of unemployment. Encouraged by my local course for unemployed, I visited the company personally and handed them a dead tree CV and cover letter. I was mildly amused to find they seem to be just 3 guys in small dusty room. I ended up on a job interview of sorts I…

It is embarrassing that in this day and age a dead tree copy of a CV, handed in in person is what gets peoples attention, but it does. Also maybe print it in an unusual size -- that way they can't file them away for "maybe later" as they won't fit and they are forced to have the CV on their mind. An unusual color might also prevent it from getting lost in the stack of resumes.

I'm not a fan of unusual sizes and colours. That said, printing on a decent linen paper (on the correct side!) has helped me.

Re: Hire talent, not five years with Java

#100

Post by 127001brewer » Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #96

127001brewer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...it's all about now, now, now. I think this mentality affects all aspects of our lives and society. How do you disrupt this shortsightedness?

Typical corporate rank cultures are short-sighted because they've lost vision and short-term P&L is the only thing that matters. Risk-reductive management means that no one gets to do anything long-term because no one is trusted to bet that much time on anything. VC-istan is based on a get-big-or-die mentality. These companies end up with tight deadlines because they're forced to hire so fast. That makes them panicky…

...because no one is trusted to bet that much time on anything.

Right and, maybe, this partly why a growing number of people do not stay at a company for too long. (I think you mentioned this idea (that, basically, human labor is an easily trade-able commodity) in one of your Gervais / MacLeod posts.)