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$10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

pycon.blogspot.com

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Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#181

Post by WayneDB »

MartinCron wrote: post #164
WayneDB wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(nesting maximum reached) I don't think I'm misunderstanding you at all. You said that "juvenile" humor is pervasive. Wouldn't that indicate that the general consensus is that this type of humor is OK? Let's get it straight - the (very small) minority here want to make the environment more comfortable for themselves. (Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular bo…

Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular body part qualifies as "juvenile" Here you go: Not all jokes or conversations about one particular body part are juvenile. The one in question was. I don't think any reasonable person would dispute that, even the guy who unfortunately lost his job over it. He's not exactly standing behind his joke as the pinnacle of huma…

I can certainly discern what most people consider to be juvenile.

You still haven't answered the question though. And do please refrain from the ad-hominem arguments.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#182

Post by monksy »

wpietri wrote: post #178
monksy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're requir…

Nobody has ever said that there is some sort of physical barrier, so I'm not sure why you need to argue against it. Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man. The point of girl scouts isn't to make professional girl scouts, so that's another straw man. If you're going to argue against something, make sure that there's actually somebody on the other side.

You made the claim prior that I completely misunderstood the problem.

You stated: >Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones.

>Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man

Overbearing behavior and guys who are desperate+lack the social graces produce the behavior that is typically described as harassment.

> The point of girl scouts isn't to make professional girl scout, so that's another straw man.

In the same sense of the "girl coding camps" it's the equivalent.

There is a modern claim that "tech is unfriendly to women, and we need to encourage women to consider it." Or that "its a guys only thing" I don't think that Mrs. Hopper, LLamar, or Lovelace would agree.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#183

Post by overgryphon »

granitepail wrote: post #172
overgryphon wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a woman, and I work in software development, so I'm assuming I fit in your group called "women in tech". I have no idea what insults, abuse, threats, contempt, ridicule, disdain, and disregard I apparently have been routinely facing. If "women in tech" did suffer so severely on a daily basis, it would not be relevant to Richards. Her job description seems to be "Developer Evangelist". I'm not sure what that spec…

This kind of response terrifies me. I'm a man, so maybe I am not in a place to correct you, but I have gotten the impression that the pressure and discomfort wrought by this kind of behavior (whether or not you have a thick enough skin to deal with it) pushes a lot of women away from tech in the first place. Even if you try and reduce the behavior to "little boys club" material, such joking is still alienating to man…

Juvenile behavior alienates people, not women. Just because a woman was offended doesn't make it a gender issue. Richards can say what she is offended by, but she doesn't get to speak for women. And if she's going to consider herself qualified to speak for "women in tech", then she'd better at least be a part of that group.

There are real legitimate problems with gender disparity in the software development community. People like Richards undermine those wanting to discuss real problems by calling attention to situations that don't deserve it.

The question I've most heard from women considering an undergraduate degree in computer science is whether women are treated as horribly as comments like the one I was responding to describe- "the abundant reality of insults, abuse, threats, hatred, contempt, ridicule, disdain, disregard that women in tech routinely face".

And that simply isn't true. Yes, there are gender problems in a community that is largely male oriented, but there is no need to exaggerate them to such lengths. I am just so tired of "women in tech" groups telling me how discriminated I am. Let me evaluate that for myself, thank you very much.

Not to mention that it is completely unacceptable to post pictures of other people online without their permission. Had those two men been women, would we be having a discussion of the danger of stalking, death threats, and abuse that Richards put them in?

And please excuse me, I wasn't trying to say her behavior warranted harassment- simply that by making the situation public, she took that risk. She could have easily handled this situation in a more discrete manner.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#184

Post by keepkalm »

pekk wrote: post #47
keepkalm wrote: post #32

My initial reaction was this is great, women are underrepresented in tech. Thoughts that came afterward: this is a horrible overreaction to what happened at PyCon over dongle-gate and this reinforces the boys club by making women a protected class (no pun intended).

Why do you think this has anything to do with Adria Richards? PyLadies was receiving donations well before any of that blew up. If you want to argue that PyLadies is hurting women somehow then you are going to have to provide better evidence.

OK, my point wasn't that PyLadies was hurting women, quite the opposite. My point was that raising that amount of money shows the amount of collective guilt that the group felt towards this protected minority. Which is what caused the initial over-reaction that cost the dongle jokers their jobs.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#185

Post by keepkalm »

ubernostrum wrote: post #39
keepkalm wrote: post #32

My initial reaction was this is great, women are underrepresented in tech. Thoughts that came afterward: this is a horrible overreaction to what happened at PyCon over dongle-gate and this reinforces the boys club by making women a protected class (no pun intended).

PyLadies has existed for years, and the auction was announced and organized before PyCon even happened, and took place before the entire internet went apeshit. These are facts you may find useful in deciding how to view this event.

OK, my point wasn't that PyLadies was hurting women, quite the opposite. My point was that raising that amount of money shows the amount of collective guilt that the group felt towards this protected minority. Which is what caused the initial over-reaction that cost the dongle jokers their jobs.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#186

Post by andrewdupont »

overgryphon wrote: post #169
andrewdupont wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It is unfortunate that Richards received the huge storms of abuse that she did. But she chose to handle the situation in a way that invited that abuse, when there were clear ways to "speak up" that would not have resulted in such abuse." This reasoning bothers me. Let's stipulate that Adria's post to Twitter was a mistake. You seem to say that the abuse is her fault, because if she hadn't made that mistake, she wo…

Nobody deserves death threats. But that issue has nothing to do with PyCon, women in tech, or software development. It is simply current reality that whenever anyone posts things online, other people are able to respond by anonymously sending death threats. The fact that there are people who choose to do so sucks, and is a problem, but this is a well-known fact. You, right now, could click reply on my comment and sen…

> "But that issue has nothing to do with PyCon, women in tech, or software development."

I disagree. The shitheads in our community who would stoop to death threats do not threaten everyone equally. The way I know that is that a woman who complained about a joke got a bunch of abuse, yet the company who fired the joke-teller — by all accounts, an overreaction — got nearly none.

Also, it's not just death threats; it's harassment, too. Jesse Noller, who ran PyCon, commits the sin of "having a Code of Conduct and enforcing it," and ends up getting hate mail and harassing phone calls (https://twitter.com/jessenoller/status/314417532842950656).

Internet geeks have weird and sadistic ways of dispensing "justice." That's unfortunate, but even worse is what they decide to point their magnifying glass at.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#187

Post by andrewdupont »

overgryphon wrote: post #183
granitepail wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of response terrifies me. I'm a man, so maybe I am not in a place to correct you, but I have gotten the impression that the pressure and discomfort wrought by this kind of behavior (whether or not you have a thick enough skin to deal with it) pushes a lot of women away from tech in the first place. Even if you try and reduce the behavior to "little boys club" material, such joking is still alienating to man…

Juvenile behavior alienates people, not women. Just because a woman was offended doesn't make it a gender issue. Richards can say what she is offended by, but she doesn't get to speak for women. And if she's going to consider herself qualified to speak for "women in tech", then she'd better at least be a part of that group. There are real legitimate problems with gender disparity in the software development community…

> Had those two men been women, would we be having a discussion of the danger of stalking, death threats, and abuse that Richards put them in?

Yes.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#188

Post by pifflesnort »

andrewdupont wrote: post #186
overgryphon wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody deserves death threats. But that issue has nothing to do with PyCon, women in tech, or software development. It is simply current reality that whenever anyone posts things online, other people are able to respond by anonymously sending death threats. The fact that there are people who choose to do so sucks, and is a problem, but this is a well-known fact. You, right now, could click reply on my comment and sen…

> "But that issue has nothing to do with PyCon, women in tech, or software development." I disagree. The shitheads in our community who would stoop to death threats do not threaten everyone equally . The way I know that is that a woman who complained about a joke got a bunch of abuse, yet the company who fired the joke-teller — by all accounts, an overreaction — got nearly none . Also, it's not just death threats; it…

> The shitheads in our community who would stoop to death threats do not threaten everyone equally.

What do you have that demonstrates that they're even in our community?

> Internet geeks have weird and sadistic ways of dispensing "justice." That's unfortunate, but even worse is what they decide to point their magnifying glass at.

Not "Internet geeks". Anonymous mobs of dubious maturity and intelligence have weird and sadistic ways of dispensing "justice", on and off the internet.

This is not unique to technology, it's not unique to women, it's not unique to issues of sexism, and it's not unique to Twitter.

As I've noted numerous times in this thread, Olivia Wilde, an actress, received similarly hateful and disgusting Twitter messages for daring to insult Justin Beiber, a pop musician whose primary fanbase seems to be pre-teens and teens.

Something tells me that the people that were offended enough to send hate mail and treets were not angry "internet geeks".

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#189

Post by MartinCron »

WayneDB wrote: post #181
MartinCron wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular body part qualifies as "juvenile" Here you go: Not all jokes or conversations about one particular body part are juvenile. The one in question was. I don't think any reasonable person would dispute that, even the guy who unfortunately lost his job over it. He's not exactly standing behind his joke as the pinnacle of huma…

I can certainly discern what most people consider to be juvenile. You still haven't answered the question though. And do please refrain from the ad-hominem arguments.

I didn't mean to get all ad-hominem. Some people literally can't differentiate between juvenile and non-juvenile humor. Apologies .

I haven't answered the question because the whole premise is flawed. You're asking why it's never appropriate to discuss some body parts, but that's not true.

Extremely personal real world example: I had a urethral stricture biopsy done years and years ago (I'm OK now). Discussions in that context get clinical and professional very quickly. Nobody is making any snickering jokes in the operating room.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#190

Post by wpietri »

monksy wrote: post #182
wpietri wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has ever said that there is some sort of physical barrier, so I'm not sure why you need to argue against it. Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man. The point of girl scouts isn't to make professional girl scouts, so that's another straw man. If you're going to argue against something, make sure that there's actually somebody on the other side.

You made the claim prior that I completely misunderstood the problem. You stated: >Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. >Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man Overbearing behavior and guys who are desperate+lack the social graces produce the behavior that is typically described as harassment. > The point of girl scouts isn't to make professiona…

I stand by my claim that you don't understand the problem. Or what Girl Scouts are supposed to achieve. Or really, anything about what Grace Hopper or Ada Lovelace would have to say.
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