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With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

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Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#41

Post by radu_floricica »

Femur wrote: post #10
electromagnetic wrote: post #7

Coming from Europe and suffering two recessions caused by US economics, all which Ayn Rand promoted I hope this crap never gets turned into a film. The economy grows at a fair rate on average, yet Rand's aggressive-free-market capitalism basically promotes trying to grow the economy at 5000% until pop and everyone who doesn't have $500 million in the bank gets screwed over. I'm sorry, but when someone gets fired and…

>Coming from Europe and suffering two recessions caused by US economics, all which Ayn Rand promoted I hope this crap never gets turned into a film. US economics and government policy do not at all resemble the ideas that Ayn Rand promoted. These policies resemble those of Europe much more. >I'm sorry, but when someone gets fired and then handed a $150 million check for losing their job, I think capitalism flat out s…

Well, high-paid CEOs are one of the things laissez-faire capitalism didn't really do well. Not the salary per se, but the very caustic obsession on short/medium term profit over long term. You can't really blame regulations here: the most important one was forcing companies to disclose CEO salaries 20 years ago, and we know how that turned out (they exploded because of competition).

I'm very much in favor of Rand's ideas, but we must admit they do require a rather hard to find mix of idealism and dedication for all parties involved in order to work out. They're a good start, but far from a final solution.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#42

Post by ams6110 »

run4yourlives wrote: post #31
Darmani wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All over the Internet (even a few other forums for the highly intelligent), there are people trying to blame the recession the "unfettered capitalism" we've apparently gained over the last decade. At HN, I expect people to know better, or, at least, to only have to be taught once.

It's a valid enough point that a lack of regulation caused many of the current woes in the US, regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with it. Hell, I'll even give you supporting evidence: Canada. Not a single bad bank.

Did Canada push its banks to give mortgages to people who could not afford them?

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#43

Post by mpk »

unalone wrote: post #12
gfodor wrote: post #8

Everyone who I know that's read Atlas Shrugged (including myself) turned into a selfish jerk for at least a month after reading it. God help us if the "Ayn Rand temporary jerk phenomenon" is unleashed through movie theaters all at once. It's a good book but like anything else people extrapolate the points beyond recognition and additionally interpret it to re-enforce their own views, regardless of how unreasonable th…

That latter point is the problem. Atlas Shrugged is a fine novel, and I'd excuse people for being jerks if they were in fact doing the brilliant things that AS says jerks are allowed to do, but people don't do that. They read it and interpret it so that whatever they were already doing, they're allowed to keep doing.

>> Atlas Shrugged is a fine novel [..]

No it's not. It's really not.

I don't want to get into a big AS bashing here, but if you're looking for a good Ayn Rand novel on individualism I suggest you try 'The Fountainhead'.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#44

Post by paulgb »

Apologies for being slightly off topic, but since there are a number of Atlas Shrugged readers here, I have a question:

Is it worth reading? Most discussion about the book seems to be about Objectivism in general, understandably. But aside from the philosophy of the book, is it an entertaining or interesting read? (or is that like the quotation asking "Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?") I generally like to read books that are getting talked about, but I've heard so many mixed reviews of this it's a tough decision.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#45

Post by unalone »

mpk wrote: post #43
unalone wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That latter point is the problem. Atlas Shrugged is a fine novel, and I'd excuse people for being jerks if they were in fact doing the brilliant things that AS says jerks are allowed to do, but people don't do that. They read it and interpret it so that whatever they were already doing, they're allowed to keep doing.

>> Atlas Shrugged is a fine novel [..] No it's not. It's really not. I don't want to get into a big AS bashing here, but if you're looking for a good Ayn Rand novel on individualism I suggest you try 'The Fountainhead'.

Okay, let me clarify, because I like The Fountainhead much more. But you make a very good point.

The Fountainhead is the better book. It's better edited, the characters are better, and the plot is much more secure. Atlas Shrugged isn't nearly as good if you don't have Roark and Toohey and Dominique fixed in your mind, because Rand doesn't spend time making her characters realistic in Atlas. She just assumes that you can make the leap from her Fountainhead characters.

That said, Atlas is the more epic novel, and it's a conclusion in a lot of ways to the battle started in The Fountainhead. It's poorly-written, but in terms of pure pulp enjoyment there's nothing to beat it. That's why people get addicted to it: it lays out a fairly complex philosophical idea and attaches pirates, Spanish conquistadors, sci-fi weaponry, mad scientists, and - of course - all-American capitalists into the fray, and lets it culminate in lots of really fulfilling scenes that are terrific fun if you're okay with ignoring poorly-written stuff. It's a quagmire of a book, with several awful chapters leading up to two or three incredible moments - the ribbon-cutting of the train, the court scene with Rearden, the Galt's Gulch chapter - and those are the moments that stick in mind, especially the first handful of times you read the book.

So I say "fine" meaning "not terrible", which I know is a horrible corruption of the idea behind "fine". Atlas is worth a read for people who liked The Fountainhead, and it offers stuff that book doesn't have to offer, even if it's not as good a novel.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#46

Post by unalone »

paulgb wrote: post #44

Apologies for being slightly off topic, but since there are a number of Atlas Shrugged readers here, I have a question: Is it worth reading? Most discussion about the book seems to be about Objectivism in general, understandably. But aside from the philosophy of the book, is it an entertaining or interesting read? (or is that like the quotation asking "Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?") I generally like to…

The philosophy is mixed up in with it. I think it's an enjoyable book even if you don't agree with the philosophy.

Start with The Fountainhead, though. It's a much less flawed book, and it's less outright offensive.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#47

Post by unalone »

whughes wrote: post #37
Darmani wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All over the Internet (even a few other forums for the highly intelligent), there are people trying to blame the recession the "unfettered capitalism" we've apparently gained over the last decade. At HN, I expect people to know better, or, at least, to only have to be taught once.

Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you downvote them. This is exactly the kind of attitude that fosters groupthink and drains the life out of forums.

I downvoted electromagnetic because he distorted what Rand's actually saying. I upvoted him everywhere else in the thread, where he argues about the book, but I thought that it was worth downvoting inaccuracy.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#48

Post by ojbyrne »

gfodor wrote: post #8

Everyone who I know that's read Atlas Shrugged (including myself) turned into a selfish jerk for at least a month after reading it. God help us if the "Ayn Rand temporary jerk phenomenon" is unleashed through movie theaters all at once. It's a good book but like anything else people extrapolate the points beyond recognition and additionally interpret it to re-enforce their own views, regardless of how unreasonable th…

Of course you mean everyone you know who actually liked the book. I didn't much like it, I like style, and there wasn't much of that. And, of course, I read "The Grapes of Wrath" right before - two polemics from opposite points of the political spectrum, but Steinbeck can actually compose a sentence.

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#49

Post by kirubakaran »

hermitcrab wrote: post #18

I tried to read 'Atlas Shrugged' recently. I only got a few chapters in before I lost interest. But I am not really much of a novel reader. Is it worth reading the Galt speech on its own? If so, where in the books is it (I'm not reading 1,100 pages to find it)?

http://amberandchaos.com/?page_id=106

Re: With 'Atlas Shrugged,' Hollywood may have its first anti-bailout movie

#50

Post by whughes »

unalone wrote: post #47
whughes wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you downvote them. This is exactly the kind of attitude that fosters groupthink and drains the life out of forums.

I downvoted electromagnetic because he distorted what Rand's actually saying. I upvoted him everywhere else in the thread, where he argues about the book, but I thought that it was worth downvoting inaccuracy.

I feel that it would be better to point out the inaccuracy, which could very well be a result of misunderstanding on electromagnetic's part. I believe downvoting should be reserved for more egregious errors (trolling, off-topic, rudeness, and so on). I think you raise a separate point than Darmani did, however. He was focusing on economic ideas and topics that are far more open to discussion as a reason for downvoting.
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