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Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

ruthburr.com

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Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#21

Post by tonyarkles »

ruthburr wrote: post #19
alanpca wrote: post #10

> not that that stops some men from gaily trampling over that line Women don't step over the line? This is sexism.

That's true, women do, but not having been on the receiving end it's harder for me to speak on that, and it's not what the post is about. I think that we can discuss the behaviors of one group of people without the implied assumption that they're the only ones who behave in that way or that every other group is inherently blameless.

It frustrates me to no end that people can't sit and talk about "things men do that make women uncomfortable" without diverging off into talking about double standards, fairness, etc.

In the 5 years that I hung around the university, I can remember exactly once when a woman made an unwanted advance towards me. I told her that I wasn't interested, she looked a little hurt and backed off, and things were fine. In no way did I feel threatened.

Looking at it from the other side, I know I definitely made more than one woman uncomfortable with unwanted advances (I was pretty awkward back then and didn't even know what I was doing). And I definitely observed (and sometimes stopped) very obviously uncomfortable situations where male classmates were being wildly inappropriate and either oblivious to that or just not caring.

So yes, there's the possibility that there could be negative female-male interactions at conferences, but that's not the discussion we're having. And it's not really a problem that is facing our industry to anywhere near the same scale as "men doing things that make women feel uncomfortable".

Thanks Ruth for having the patience to throw your hat in the ring. Hopefully, eventually, people will get it :)

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#22

Post by ccallebs »

It upsets me that we are only able to share sanitized parts of ourselves depending on the situation. I realize that it is a necessity to tone down our ancillary personality traits when among strangers and acquaintances, but setting arbitrary rules and guidelines about expected social behavior seems to be killing a fly with jackhammer -- neither effective nor practical.

I also sympathize with those that feel alienated in environments that should be welcoming to people of all demographics. I would not personally partake in any of the things this person speaks of (with the exception of sexual innuendo and only if I was in known company). The parenthetical may seem hypocritical, but it's part of my personality. For better or for worse, toilet humor is something I find funny. Blame it on my upbringing or my public education, but it's a part of who I am. I cannot turn that off, no matter what the setting is.

Ultimately, if someone is making you uncomfortable or crossing any sort of personal boundaries you've set, it's your responsibility to let that person know. If they ignore and persist, it warrants elevation to a higher authority. We must remember that human interaction is human interaction. There are too many variables involved to write a guide book.

All of that being said, I appreciate posts like Ruth's. Anything that helps me expand my own world view is invaluable and praised as a great asset. If the debacle at PyCon has taught me anything, it was that we all need to sit down and listen to each other.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#23

Post by ruthburr »

ccallebs wrote: post #22

It upsets me that we are only able to share sanitized parts of ourselves depending on the situation. I realize that it is a necessity to tone down our ancillary personality traits when among strangers and acquaintances, but setting arbitrary rules and guidelines about expected social behavior seems to be killing a fly with jackhammer -- neither effective nor practical. I also sympathize with those that feel alienated…

I think the parenthetical actually is your most important point. All of the behaviors I've described are perfectly acceptable among known company, but unfortunately not everyone has that fine awareness. I also find sex jokes and toilet humor funny, but not in an environment that's already a sexual harassment minefield to me. I could take a step back and say "don't make innuendoes to people you don't know very well because it's rude" and that would also be true.

I agree that we should let people know when they transgress our boundaries, but putting the onus on women to constantly call people out on their behavior (which we should all do more, even though it's really hard and uncomfortable and scary to do) removes men's agency to also help with the problem - something I sincerely believe many men would like to do. I think approaching how we interact with a bit more thought and awareness of the unintentional impressions we may give off will go a long way for all of us, as humans, to interact better.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#24

Post by adrianhoward »

I'll give a nice subtle example of sexism that I committed.

Back in the 1990's I helped teach a AI Systems course. It had a fair few female students - probably more than average for that sort of course actually now that I think about it.

Part of the work I did was helping in the practical labs. I thought I was doing a pretty good job - until one of the smarter students took me aside and pointed out a rather dumb unconscious behaviour of mine.

I was systematically helping the women more.

The men I'd help when they asked, or when they'd obviously hit a wall and were making no progress. With the women I'd step in almost as soon as they hit a problem. Anybody who has done teaching will tell you that students progress by solving their own problems - not by having the teacher step in and solve 'em for them. I was hurting those students progress by stepping in too early. I was stopping them learning.

I'd love to say that I immediately saw this as a problem... but I didn't. Because - y'know - despite the 70's being my first decade I was a pretty right on guy! I wouldn't be doing sexist things! Uh uh. Not me.

Fortunately some vague remnant of intelligence kicked in after about 20m of muttering (backed up by some personal memories of the problems that being helped too much can cause) and I accepted that I had fucked up and started fixing that behaviour. And thanked the student who had pointed it out. To be honest it's still something I watch myself for when teaching today. A chunk of my social and cultural programming is still trying to tell me that women need to be helped more.

And that - to some extent anyway - is the problem I see with some folk when the sexism topic comes up.

These days the majority of people I encounter don't think men are superior to women, or that women are incapable of being in technical fields, etc. Compared to 20 or 30 years back the incidence of "women in the home" or "women don't do computers" folk I encounter is very small.

The problem is with the folk like me ;-) The folk who think behaviour X can't be sexist - because they're not a sexist! Because the behaviour is almost - or even entirely - unconscious and shaped by the previous N decades of culture and society.

Things do change - but oh so slowly.... and those habits can be a complete sod to break.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#25

Post by joshlegs »

i wonder how often things like "the pick up" happen in other industries as well. I would imagine women just see it in practice more often in the tech industry simply because of ratios. When you're the only woman there you're more likely to get hit on 500 times than if there were 500 women there. I also wonder if it's less acceptable in tech industries because you have bright women who would rather be respected because of their minds than their bodies, and are willing to say something about it. Not to mention, how often does the whole "boss having affair with secretary" happen? The problem is systemic everywhere. I just have a feeling it's more pronounced in tech because the same women see the problem over and over, versus a lot seeing it here and there.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#26

Post by MetaCosm »

danso wrote: post #11

I imagine this is going to be controversial: > Listen, guys. You have to stop trying to pick up women at conferences. You just have to stop doing it. Again, context matters: you’re not just hanging out at a bar drinking with your buddies, chatting up the attractive woman sitting next to you. You’re at an industry function, talking to women who are your industry peers. They’re simply not there to be hit on – even in w…

Not to mention that conference generally generate a lot of "sex" -- the result of a successful mutually acceptable pickup. I personally know of two marriages with 5 "by products" of conferences.

There are some good points in that post, but they get watered down by the much weaker less thought out ones.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#27

Post by drewcoo »

joshlegs wrote: post #25

i wonder how often things like "the pick up" happen in other industries as well. I would imagine women just see it in practice more often in the tech industry simply because of ratios. When you're the only woman there you're more likely to get hit on 500 times than if there were 500 women there. I also wonder if it's less acceptable in tech industries because you have bright women who would rather be respected becaus…

Most of us here are probably geeks. We're geeks who work closely, collaboratively with other geeks. But we're not hired for our social skills. I think that probably makes a lot of human relation problems more pronounced in tech. Unintentionally making someone uncomfortable is probably just one of the symptoms.And no, I have no data to back that up; just anecdotes and conjecture.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#28

Post by ccallebs »

ruthburr wrote: post #23
ccallebs wrote: post #22

It upsets me that we are only able to share sanitized parts of ourselves depending on the situation. I realize that it is a necessity to tone down our ancillary personality traits when among strangers and acquaintances, but setting arbitrary rules and guidelines about expected social behavior seems to be killing a fly with jackhammer -- neither effective nor practical. I also sympathize with those that feel alienated…

I think the parenthetical actually is your most important point. All of the behaviors I've described are perfectly acceptable among known company, but unfortunately not everyone has that fine awareness. I also find sex jokes and toilet humor funny, but not in an environment that's already a sexual harassment minefield to me. I could take a step back and say "don't make innuendoes to people you don't know very well be…

You've certainly given me some food for thought. I had not considered that it could potentially be a full time job informing those around you that they are being crude and/or disrespectful.

It also seems that we are agreement on everything except the agency of men. While I would personally call someone out if they were being overtly sexist or disrespectful to anyone, I cannot expect others to do so. For some people, the thought of calling someone out in public is a terrifying proposition. Which, as I typed that, I realized that this was exactly your point as to why the onus should not be put solely on women. It seems that I have won and lost an argument with myself.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#30

Post by ruthburr »

ccallebs wrote: post #28
ruthburr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parenthetical actually is your most important point. All of the behaviors I've described are perfectly acceptable among known company, but unfortunately not everyone has that fine awareness. I also find sex jokes and toilet humor funny, but not in an environment that's already a sexual harassment minefield to me. I could take a step back and say "don't make innuendoes to people you don't know very well be…

You've certainly given me some food for thought. I had not considered that it could potentially be a full time job informing those around you that they are being crude and/or disrespectful. It also seems that we are agreement on everything except the agency of men. While I would personally call someone out if they were being overtly sexist or disrespectful to anyone , I cannot expect others to do so. For some people,…

My point about the agency of men is more: I know so many men to whom I've pointed out things like the huge gray area presented by compliments, who were glad to have their awareness raised. Not saying men should be policing other people, just being more deliberate about their own language and actions. So, for that matter, should women.
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