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$10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

pycon.blogspot.com

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Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#131

Post by budde »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #76
pekk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my knowledge, PyLadies has not engaged in discrimination. It isn't discrimination to make groups which encourage minorities to code or get involved in the Python community or whatever. Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way.

So if I set up a "boys only" tech club or society, people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder, calling me sexist, and claiming that I was trying to keep women out of tech' and or reinforcing the glass ceiling? Because frankly, I cannot see that going down well at all...

PyLadies is not a female-exclusive group, and even if it were, there's a big difference between a group meant to advocate for and affirm an underrepresented group in the tech space and one that reinforces the attitudes that have led to that underrepresentation in the first place.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#132

Post by budde »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #87
steveklabnik wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the front page of http://www.pyladies.com/ : > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! You're making an unfounded assumption that PyLadies is women only.

Fine, so what if I created something with the goal of: > We are an international mentorship group with a focus on helping more men become active participants and leaders in the Python open-source community. How do you think that would go down?

Men are not an underrepresented group in tech. It is not at all the same situation. Do you really not see that?

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#133

Post by gosu »

pekk wrote: post #91
SeanDav wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying not to get personal here, but you are guilty of just the sort of discussion that I find both embarrassing and narrow minded. By narrow minded I mean you are deliberately cherry picking individual points out of context and trying to imply something negative or even the opposite of the original post. For example you say: > " a part of you would be quite happy if you never saw a female in tech again. Even a…

You chose this. You chose to drag the Adria incident (unnamed) into an unrelated thread, perpetuating the toxic discussion (the one about Adria's incident) that you claim not to want to hear about. But you weren't responding to someone else here. You went there first. And you set the tone. You chose to open with 'I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech."' You chose to say that a part of you doe…

I find this dramatic rhetoric off-putting. OP seemed honest and nuanced. There might be a valid point to be made that his feelings are toxic to society, in some subtle way, but I'll just echo the other people here in saying that he comes off as constructive while you appear to be saying things that sound clever to you.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#134

Post by pifflesnort »

taligent wrote: post #129
pifflesnort wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how one can reasonably equate funding of a one specific organization with the concerns of "an entire gender", without knowing more about what that organization does with those funds.

What exactly are you implying ?

I'm interested in knowing how PyLadies applies their funds and how they do so in furtherance of positive and inclusive development of engineering community.

Recent events have highlighted that there are some people and entities that take an offensive (and I believe counter-productive and negative) approaches to these issues. See also Violet Blue's talk being cancelled due to the efforts by the Ada Initiative (registered nonprofit).

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#135

Post by mnicole »

pifflesnort wrote: post #124
mnicole wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your assertion is that PyLadies would use these funds to encourage that type of behavior, that seems counter-intuitive to their purpose (plus on their CoC page, it outlines that photographic harassment is not allowed, among many others). If you are genuinely interested in what they'd do with the money, you should contact them instead of making the suggestion that women should stay where they are, alienating those…

I didn't make the suggestion that 'women should stay where they are'. I asked what PyLadies does with raised funds.

Ugh, my apologies. For some reason I confused you for the person who said that upthread.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#136

Post by patrick-james »

amix wrote: post #44

PyCon had 500 women out of 2500 attendance. Gave away over $100,000 in financial aid. Gave away 2500 Raspberry Pi's. Thought kids to code. Raised $10,000 for the PyLadies. Gave permission to publish amazing online videos etc. And then you have these 3 idiots (and more online idiots) that steal the spotlight and everybody focuses on them. Sigh. Let's focus on the positive stuff!

I'm glad for this piece to have come out of Pycon. After all the damage to the community, it's great to see how much good still came out of this event.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#137

Post by king_jester »

pifflesnort wrote: post #115
king_jester wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a rhetorical device, intended to use an emotional argument ("hatred, rage, vulgar insults and detailed threads of rape, bodily harm, and murder!!!") to justify totally unrelated behavior of public naming and shaming for a mild offense. I do not agree that public naming and shaming is unrelated to this incident. You have to keep in mind that it is not unreasonable to see the penis jokes as a sexist microaggr…

'Microaggression' is, in this context, simply being misused as another device to justify disproportionate behavior. You've done further rhetorical gymnastics to tie together immature 'dongle' jokes with sexual and racial violence, ultimately with the seeming intent of redefining the entire event to absolve one party of their responsibility to act with maturity and responsibility, solely in furtherance of a culturally…

I'm curious as to why you believe microaggression is being misused here. Immature dongle jokes are related to sexual and racial violence. In terms of sexual violence in tech, Courtney Stanton did a good piece on buzzfeed about the context of sexualized violence and aggression that forms the backgroup of why a penis joke is not appropriate at a tech conference: http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-into-a...

> ultimately with the seeming intent of redefining the entire event to absolve one party of their responsibility to act with maturity and responsibility,

I do not seek to absolve anyone of anything. However, Adria Richards despondently appropriately in the pycon situation. She was under no obligation to be nice to the gentlemen making the jokes and being nice could have had the opposite effect and made them more belligerent. Taking it to pycon staff was the right thing to do. Again, while you may think it rude, she is under no obligation to meet a niceness standard when someone is violating conference rules.

> solely in furtherance of a culturally damaging, distracting, and virulent ideology.

I don't know what ideology you are referring to here. If you are referring to feminism based on Adria Richard's own statements on her blog, you are quite mistaken about feminism as damaging, distracting, or virulent. Otherwise, I'd like to know what exactly you mean.

> Olivia Wilde also received some similarly horrid threats after insulting Justin Bieber on Twitter, but I can only hope and assume that you won't be attempting to tie that event to sexism in technology, and instead recognize that it reflects a real, but very different problem.

All sexism is related, there is no need to tie sexism in tech to it because sexism in tech is already a part of the broader sexism of western society. However, I don't really know anything about this twitter exchange nor do I really know anything about Wilde and Bieber (nor do I care to really).

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#138

Post by rrouse »

MartinCron wrote: post #111
martythemaniak wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently sharing a joke with a friend now qualifies you as an "idiot".

There was a time, not all that long ago, when you could smoke cigarettes at your desk in a professional office context. Now, out of respect for the comfort of others in a shared environment, the general consensus is that you should take that toxic shit outside where we don't all have to endure it.

One thing affects the long term health of others around you. The other thing passes within a few moments.

They are not comparable.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#139

Post by pifflesnort »

king_jester wrote: post #137
pifflesnort wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Microaggression' is, in this context, simply being misused as another device to justify disproportionate behavior. You've done further rhetorical gymnastics to tie together immature 'dongle' jokes with sexual and racial violence, ultimately with the seeming intent of redefining the entire event to absolve one party of their responsibility to act with maturity and responsibility, solely in furtherance of a culturally…

I'm curious as to why you believe microaggression is being misused here. Immature dongle jokes are related to sexual and racial violence. In terms of sexual violence in tech, Courtney Stanton did a good piece on buzzfeed about the context of sexualized violence and aggression that forms the backgroup of why a penis joke is not appropriate at a tech conference: http://www.buzzfeed.com/courtneystanton/a-woman-walks-int…

> I'm curious as to why you believe microaggression is being misused here

You're using it to create a false equivalence between immature jokes and sexual/racial violence, and having done that, are using racial/sexual violence as an appeal to emotion and morality.

Having done that, you're using that appeal to rationalize Adria's disproportionate response and overstate the severity of the offense, manufacturing a reality in which the conclusion of any rational observer is foregone; Adria is the victim of sexism backed by sexual and racial violence, rather than the reality: she overheard an immature and minimally offensive joke.

In this context, 'microaggression' gives you the rhetorical tool you need to tie together minor offenses into a broader tapestry of systemic violence and oppression from which you can use emotional appeals to justify almost any response, no matter how disproportionate to the original offense.

Adria chose to evoke public mob justice by shaming individuals for behaviors that she herself engaged in, while giving the individuals in question no equivalent platform to defend themselves. This was wrong, and was done in the name of an ideology that uses rhetorical tricks such as your 'microaggressions' to justify such disproportionate behavior.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#140

Post by MartinCron »

rrouse wrote: post #138
MartinCron wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time, not all that long ago, when you could smoke cigarettes at your desk in a professional office context. Now, out of respect for the comfort of others in a shared environment, the general consensus is that you should take that toxic shit outside where we don't all have to endure it.

One thing affects the long term health of others around you. The other thing passes within a few moments. They are not comparable.

The other thing passes within a few moments

Sure that one particular flurry of dick jokes passed in a few moments. Pervasive juvenile humor is part of a culture and environment that is hostile and alienating to so many. If you don't find that environment hostile and alienating, good for you! Not everyone is going to be exactly like you.

Seriously, if childish little jokes are so damn important, they can wait until the proper context. They'll still be exactly as funny a little bit later in a more appropriate venue.

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