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Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

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Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#151

Post by mayanksinghal »

JDGM wrote: post #63
michaelochurch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal. Everything you have said on the Int…

Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".

For one, I don't think I deserve to be hanged even once. I believe I cannot even be convicted for even minor crimes. Following the law has its benefits, not worrying (about being caught), is a significant one for me.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#152

Post by rodgerd »

clicks wrote: post #135
tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is incorrect about the job market for former felons in our field, but that is orthogonal to the subsubthread we find ourselves on now.

> He is incorrect about the job market for former felons in our field I recall that you are in the security field. Naturally some of the best workers in the field very well might be individuals who got into trouble in their teenage years for hacking offenses -- I think you're operating on certain assumptions that are valid indeed only for that niche security field. I can tell you from my experiences in the corporate…

I would suggest that while there might be employers who'd take a risk with someone who had a dishonesty offence from their youth, that same pool would very quickly dry up when in became apparent such a person kept behaving dishonestly, in employment situations, no less, years later.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#153

Post by michaelochurch »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #148
michaelochurch wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place. What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean? I contend that there's risk of termination, likely without severance. Anything more would expose the individual in a way that most people would avoid. Als…

If I could interject 2 brief points: In some industries, your advice isn't practical. Tptacek's home base being Chicago probably brings commodities trading firms to the fore of his mind. Otherwise, your ideas benefit the individual with an almost adversarial approach to companies. Tptacek looks at things from the position of that adversary. Your advice stands to surprise the established order... Instead of relying on…

Right, I presume tptacek to be older and also see him as more in line with lawful good. I'm closer to chaotic good.

It's generational, I think. My parents grew up in a time when it was unthinkable to do some of the things I've advocated (e.g. concealing a felony record, using harsh tactics to improve a reference) but, in their time, it was much more the norm for employers to be decent. You wouldn't get fired because your new boss (hired 2 days ago) wanted his high school friend in your position. That happens all the time now. My parents' generation grew up before the corporate social contract fell to pieces. It vanished for them before most of them could get to the top of anything, but they still want to believe in it and have a hatred for the rule-breakers at the top who killed it.

Millennial rule-breakers are different. We never believed anyone took the rules seriously, and we break them from the bottom.

I was born in 1983 (after the apocalypse had begun) and the differences in assumptions are huge. I never grew up thinking anything positive about corporations in general. Specific companies, sure. Microsoft seemed OK, Google was neat for some time. But it was clear even in the mid-90s that most of them had turned brazenly evil and weren't coming back.

As a generation, we are ethical, but we have more fluency with rules than older generations. None of us would think twice about bumping a performance-based bonus to the top bucket (e.g. in finance where that's important for future jobs). That's just something you do. It's none of their business and the lie is what they get for asking. On the flip side, there are a lot of things that most of us find disgusting and truly unethical (war, pollution, oppression of overseas workers) that Baby Boomer CEOs don't seem to oppose.

Frankly, in a world with the Koch Brothers and Xe/Blackwater and private health insurance, I don't give the square root of a fuck if someone decides to lie on his resume. I don't lie, but that's because I have a good resume and don't want to gamble credibility, but other people who do it are a rounding error, compared to the real shit going down.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#154

Post by justanother »

I did some dumb things when I was a teenager, and eyebrows get raised when I answer certain questions truthfully (although in my case, none of it quite rises to the level of a federal conviction). In the circles in which I have worked for the past 15 or so years (slinging Ruby, PHP, Node, and so forth), this wouldn't even come up in an interview, let alone elicit more than a few chuckles if mentioned. The only thing that matters is that you're mature enough to be trusted now, and your work will show that. Really, you should have heard the giggles when I said I was leaving work early one night to sit the GED (and I was 25 and making six figures). TL;DR let your work speak for you.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#155

Post by JDGM »

mayanksinghal wrote: post #151
JDGM wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".

For one, I don't think I deserve to be hanged even once. I believe I cannot even be convicted for even minor crimes. Following the law has its benefits, not worrying (about being caught), is a significant one for me.

I hear you, but with respect think you have misconstrued the quotation. Montaigne is saying that the law is so wide and so complex that without knowing it we are constantly committing crimes, for which no fair judge would try us and for which we will never be punished, but nonetheless we are committing.

He exaggerates for effect both in the extent of the crimes and the extent of the punishment but, as a complement to the idea that an employer (if you will, a potentially "unfair judge") can extend their checks from criminal activity to all online activity and in so doing legitimately dismiss an employee, it seems an appropriate "polite" reply to my comment's parent.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#156

Post by akgerber »

largesse wrote: post #44
sethrin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or renewal for a number of reasons, including if you: Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan Are behind on child support payments Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court Were subject to a previous denial or revocation…

I wonder.. technically, not having a passport doesn't prevent you from leaving the country. You can get in a boat and take off. Leaving by plane is difficult, as well as legally entering another country. Is it actually illegal to reenter the US as a citizen without a US passport? I would hope that as a US citizen you have a right to entry and visiting a US Consulate in another country would start the process regardle…

Exiting the US on foot at the Mexican border involves no check of any kind of documentation-- you just walk through a couple turnstiles, and a Mexican Marine may search your bag if you look suspicious.

That, of course, makes it easy to be in Tiajuana without a passport. From what I heard when I lived in San Diego, if you bring a US drivers' license, and especially if you also bring a US birth certificate, the border agents may chew you out, but they will let you into the US.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#157

Post by alt2319 »

0x00_ wrote: post #123
alt2319 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media, but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a great feeling and something I'…

:) These are the types of posts I was hoping for when I created this thread. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this -both of you. It's just been really shitty to think about lately as far as my future is concerned. I am at a point where I'm beginning to question whether or not the choices I am making now are worth the investment of time (or not) before it's too late to change course. your experiences giv…

It will be hard at times. That's just the way things are. But there are definitely ways to make things work. I think the odds of getting a decent job with strangers are pretty low, but the more time passes, the easier it is for them to consider it a "youthful indiscretion". I've tried really hard to just suck it up and explain everything as how I made a mistake but took full responsibility and did everything I could to make it right.

I've mentioned on other threads that every single time I bring up my background, people have stories about other people they know or coworkers with criminal records. I have two friends with vehicular manslaughter convictions (one a DUI) and both hold decent jobs in the IT field. It hasn't been easy for them either, but they've fought their way back into the field with help from friends.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#158

Post by downandout »

You should keep your current job and start a business in tech on the side. If you grow it, you can quit your lower paying job - you will have created your own. Maybe try IT consulting or mobile app development. If you go the development route, obviously no one needs to know or will care who was behind it. Even as a consultant, few if any clients will ask you about convictions, and you can simply decline the work from clients that do.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#159

Post by Daniel_Newby »

michaelochurch wrote: post #118
tptacek wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then add to the problems I have with the very bad advice you're giving on this thread that this is a game or an intellectual exercise for you, and a lasting painful career-threatening injury to anyone who takes that advice. Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just…

Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place. What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean? I contend that there's risk of termination, likely without severance. Anything more would expose the individual in a way that most people would avoid. Als…

> What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean?

1. Criminal complaint that results in arrest. Youthful folly can be forgiven, but being caught in a calculated adult deception is pretty much nonrecoverable.

2. Audits of everything he touched, with a view towards uncovering a repeat of his earlier deceptions. Even if he is innocent, there is a good chance that the security consultants and forensic accountants will find something interesting. Something that the detective investigating the case will not understand.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#160

Post by [deleted] »

michaelochurch wrote: post #153
droopyEyelids wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could interject 2 brief points: In some industries, your advice isn't practical. Tptacek's home base being Chicago probably brings commodities trading firms to the fore of his mind. Otherwise, your ideas benefit the individual with an almost adversarial approach to companies. Tptacek looks at things from the position of that adversary. Your advice stands to surprise the established order... Instead of relying on…

Right, I presume tptacek to be older and also see him as more in line with lawful good. I'm closer to chaotic good. It's generational, I think. My parents grew up in a time when it was unthinkable to do some of the things I've advocated (e.g. concealing a felony record, using harsh tactics to improve a reference) but, in their time, it was much more the norm for employers to be decent. You wouldn't get fired because…

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