Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

pastebin.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 182 posts

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#141

Post by yep_throwaway »

tptacek wrote: post #80
osteele wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

If you deliberately conceal a criminal conviction from an employer who asks, that employer is more than "not referenceable"; they're a company who has fired you for cause. Among other things, they are now another thing you'll have to either disclose or try to conceal from future employers, many of whom will ask whether/from-where you've been fired for cause. In extreme cases, making fraudulent bogus disclosures to em…

I'll agree that it's dumb but, unfortunately, it is sometimes necessary if one wants to eat.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#142

Post by phaus »

oijaf888 wrote: post #121
tptacek wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be working under the delusion that the worst thing that can happen if you lie to your employer is that you might lose your job. No.

In some high profile cases, people haven't even lost their jobs (e.g. http://readwrite.com/2012/05/03/10-executives-who-lied-on-th... ) and the damage was limited to their reputation and bonuses. I'm surprised there weren't more shareholder lawsuits or similar in the case of CEOs. Obviously if your employer is a government lying can result in jail time but other than that it seems the worst that happens is you get fi…

I can't believe that Warren Cook didn't make the list. His story is far more outlandish than any of these. He was one of the highest paid employees at the company my father worked at, the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, ME.

He claimed to have a Master's degree from a prestigious university, that he was awarded the Navy Cross(1 step below the Medal of Honor) and that he played for the 1968 U.S. Olympic hockey team. No one fact checked a single qualification that he listed on his resume, they just hired him.

The sad part is, after they discovered that he was a fraud, they still wanted him to stick around. From what I hear, he did a pretty good job.

http://archive.bangordailynews.com/2003/09/30/jackson-lab-of...

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#143

Post by tptacek »

yep_throwaway wrote: post #138
tptacek wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are providing what I believe to be --- pragmatically --- terrible advice in this thread. It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction; in fact, by all outward appearances, the opposite is true; people with CFAA convictions are employed at a rate higher than that of the overall population; they are, as a general rule, employed. What you're saying is that you think the job market is so i…

> It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction Perhaps not in the Valley, but I don't believe the OP provided his location. I'm not in the Valley and I speak from experience when I say that it is extremely difficult to find employment in any industry w/ a felony conviction. Due to the nature of the information we sometimes have access to, it is (in many cases) more difficult to find a job…

I'm in Chicago (well, no, I'm in Los Gatos at the moment, but my experiences are drawn from Chicago).

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#144

Post by yep_throwaway »

avar wrote: post #5

Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job. Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U…

Most job applications nowadays have a clause at the end where, by signing, you give them permission to perform a background check (with no way to know if they actually will). In addition, most also state something to the effect that omission == lying. Thus, if you "forget" to mention that you were convicted, it's the same as if lying -- which, of course, is grounds for immediate termination.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#145

Post by yep_throwaway »

auctiontheory wrote: post #8
avar wrote: post #5

Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job. Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U…

The US generally won't issue passports to convicted felons. (That's the Google consensus, anyway.)

Yes, they do -- I have one.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#146

Post by yep_throwaway »

csense wrote: post #94

This is actually a problem with how US society works. It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is someone supposed to recover their life after that? The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As more and more of the popu…

As someone who was convicted of a felony at age 19 and immediately turned his life around (yet still suffers the consequences), I wish more people felt the way that you do. Thank you.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#147

Post by clicks »

csense wrote: post #94

This is actually a problem with how US society works. It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is someone supposed to recover their life after that? The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As more and more of the popu…

Sadly, the opposite will happen. There's fierce competition for a lot of jobs and a pool of job seekers full to the brim, criminal records are becoming just another qualifier employers conveniently use for filtering purposes.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#148

Post by droopyEyelids »

michaelochurch wrote: post #118
tptacek wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then add to the problems I have with the very bad advice you're giving on this thread that this is a game or an intellectual exercise for you, and a lasting painful career-threatening injury to anyone who takes that advice. Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just…

Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place. What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean? I contend that there's risk of termination, likely without severance. Anything more would expose the individual in a way that most people would avoid. Als…

If I could interject 2 brief points:

In some industries, your advice isn't practical. Tptacek's home base being Chicago probably brings commodities trading firms to the fore of his mind.

Otherwise, your ideas benefit the individual with an almost adversarial approach to companies. Tptacek looks at things from the position of that adversary. Your advice stands to surprise the established order... Instead of relying on the mercy of an all-powerful business benefactor, someone who followed you would continue operating under their own power, through their own exploit.

So it's possible you guys might agree in certain cases but it seems unlikely you'll come to public agreement on the hypotheticals here.

Also, I like your blog.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#149

Post by [deleted] »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #148
michaelochurch wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place. What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean? I contend that there's risk of termination, likely without severance. Anything more would expose the individual in a way that most people would avoid. Als…

If I could interject 2 brief points: In some industries, your advice isn't practical. Tptacek's home base being Chicago probably brings commodities trading firms to the fore of his mind. Otherwise, your ideas benefit the individual with an almost adversarial approach to companies. Tptacek looks at things from the position of that adversary. Your advice stands to surprise the established order... Instead of relying on…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#150

Post by yep_throwaway »

largesse wrote: post #105

I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.

IANAL but I've got some "experience" in the legal area. A felony is a crime that is punishable by incarceration of more than one year. It doesn't matter if you were given one day in jail -- if the crime you are convicted of could have resulted in you being given one year and one day, it is a felony.
Post reply on HN