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Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

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Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#31

Post by 0x00_ »

justizin wrote: post #27

Nobody cares at a job worth doing. Don't apply for IT departments, apply for mid to late stage startups in the bay area or other intense tech areas. I don't know anyone who would be worried about giving you the root password to hundreds of machines because you broke more exciting rules when you were younger than we did. Stop telling yourself that you can't have what you want, and get it!

I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for "interns" they do not have to pay.

I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is something I have been seriously considering.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#32

Post by eof »

The great thing about this industry is that you can build things on your own. It's tough if you are already having to put in 40+ hours a week just to get by; but if you have real skills you should be able to turn them into something profitable.

Perhaps doing penn-testing if you're still into it, or building an income generating product. It's probably also possible to get hired by a startup or through a personal connection.. but my general recommendation would be to create value directly.. since customers aren't going to even know who you are in most cases if you are selling them SaaS

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#33

Post by cm2012 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #2

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question". You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at…

This is the best answer I have ever seen to a question like this. It's articulate and carefully explains the steps leading up to an evidence based conclusion. I've rarely felt more that something is "Insightful".

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#34

Post by niggler »

Your best bet is to leverage your social circles to get an entry point to your first job. Once you have that, then the conversation shifts as people will see that job as vouching for your progress.

"the pursuit of this degree is a waste of time"

At this stage of the game, what you need is someone to lend you personal credibility, and a degree won't do that for you.

If you do see this, shoot me an email (included in my user page)

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#35

Post by JDGM »

osteele wrote: post #30
michaelochurch wrote: post #2

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question". You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at…

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

"If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable."

This, this, a million times this. It's not even losing the job that would be the worst for me, it would be the paranoia of turning up to work every day thinking "Did they find out about that thing now? Are they considering firing me or did they decide it didn't matter? Argh!!".

There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#36

Post by sethrin »

auctiontheory wrote: post #8
avar wrote: post #5

Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job. Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U…

The US generally won't issue passports to convicted felons. (That's the Google consensus, anyway.)

The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or renewal for a number of reasons, including if you:

    Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan
    Are behind on child support payments
    Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request
    Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court
    Were subject to a previous denial or revocation
    Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons
More detail [1][2]. Being denied the ability to leave your country, especially if you have been convicted of a crime, is a violation of your human rights. It is widely recognized, of course, that drug traffickers have no rights, and thus the US may freely discriminate.

[1] http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/... [2] http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/...

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#37

Post by mpclark »

throwaway420 wrote: post #11

* Freelancing & consulting could be beneficial in your situation. * Applying to smaller companies without HR departments could also work in your favor. They probably won't have any kind of background checks or standardized lists of questions they ask everybody. Don't lie, but you don't have to volunteer info either.

Agree on freelancing and consulting. OP, you've got a (fairly) unique qualification you can trade on -- not many folks have been through what you have. That's got to be a valuable asset. I'd encourage you to go out there and wave it around rather than hope it doesn't get discovered.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#38

Post by taligent »

jaysonelliot wrote: post #20

While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter, that doesn't need to be the end of the story. For myself as an entrepreneur looking for great developers, I don't give a whit about some dalliances from your youth. In fact, if the exploit was great enough, it might even be a selling point for your creativity and technical skill. Be up front about who you are, and look for startups that will appr…

    While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter
I've worked for quite a few large corporations i.e Fortune 50 and not a single one has done a police record check. Unless you are applying for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NSA or something similar it frankly is none of their business.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#39

Post by michaelochurch »

osteele wrote: post #30
michaelochurch wrote: post #2

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do. When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question". You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at…

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable. If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).

If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out

Long-term job security no longer exists. When you take a job, you are always at risk that it ends. For sure, this risk is real. He might get fired for hiding that detail. On the other hand, that likely means he wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Which is worse: getting a job for a couple years, building up savings, and then getting fired... or not getting any jobs and being long-term unemployed?

There are no easy answers here. We're comparing bads here. There are risks either way.

and then they aren't referenceable.

At 1 month, you just omit it.

At a year or 5 years, there are two cases. One is where the boss likes you but has (or feels he has) no choice. He probably didn't find you out or make the decision and he may want to help you out. You can discuss the reference issue and he'll probably be your ally.

If he's genuinely mad and won't give a good reference, then make him retreat to name and dates. Have lawyers on it if needed.

In the very-rare case that you need an affirmative good reference (default name-and-dates won't be enough) and he won't give it, then you have to go to extortion. That's an uncommon and ugly topic that I don't want to get into, but at 1-5 years, you have enough important knowledge to make that happen, unless he really hates you.

Re: Ask HN: Overcomming a federal conviction (computer fraud) for decent job?

#40

Post by felonyquestions »

Hi,

I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ).

College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with no college degree.

Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can. But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter.

You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right way.

* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".

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