Live data from Hacker News

Academia Is Eating Its Young

pressbuttongoboink.com

51–60 of 112 posts

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#51
post #8

For a while now, I've pondered the creation of a new scientific society, something which has the same 'vibe' as the Royal Society did in the late 1800 early 1900's. Sort of a 'gentlepersons group' of critical thinkers. The promise is freeing science to once again flourish, the danger is something like TEDx. A society to promote the pursuit of science by the common man or woman, with rigorous debate and discussion. A…

A good proportion of the people who do biomedical research do it with little or no course teaching responsibilities. That is pretty much the model at most medical schools as far as I know, especially in basic science departments there.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#52

I've been doing a lot of analysis of organizational decline over the past month, and what characterizes R&D (including academia) is extreme convexity: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/gervais-macle... Convexity pertains to the shape of the curve for output (profits, value added, impact) per input (investment, skill, effort, and just plain luck). It pertains to desirable risk behavior (convex => seek ris…

This is silly. It's purely a historical fluke that the role of professor (scientist/teacher) even exists.

There is no reason whatsoever why the same person should both create new knowledge and also teach calculus/cs 101/etc. I was good at research, but I sucked at teaching [1]. In contrast, many people are really terrible researchers, but actually pretty good teachers. (As you note, there is a glut of such people, so their wages are low.)

Separating these roles is a good thing.

[1] Due to a lack of standardized tests at the college level, I have no way to actually know this. But I do know my students didn't like me, complaining that I was too hard and unsympathetic.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#53
If (American) Academia isn't eating its young, it is chasing us away. This article explains exactly why I couldn't bear to do a PhD in the US - instead, I can do it with better funding in half the time without any coursework or comprehensive exams in the UK. It may not be as "valuable" in the US, but it keeps a number of options open for the future, while not boxing me into academia, which could end up being a dead end anyways if the bubble bursts.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#55

I always wonder when reading these just how much the author is rationalizing their choice to leave. If( and I'm assuming here) they were in grad school for CS and left , most of those problems really don't apply. There isn't the glut of adjuncts and postdocs one sees in e.g Micro biology because industry absorbs most of them. Tech transfer isn't nearly as big a problem (though may still be a problem). And reproducibi…

Not sure how to answer your question, but one thing's for sure: CS is no longer just CS, isolated by itself. CS is increasingly interdisciplinary, with cross pollination of students and teachers in other fields like bioinformatics, physics, math, economics, ecology, public health, etc. At least in these fields, it's pretty dinosaur like to just think of CS as its own thing instead of applied CS. And per your assumpti…

I think you hit the nail on the head with teaching yourself to code. Its a way out. Precisely because of that, most people in pure computer science PhD programs can leave and go to industry. This means there isn't a glut of postdocs and adjuncts. This doesn't necessarily mean you have any of a better shot actually getting the Phd or getting a tenure track position, but it means your not dead if you don't.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how to answer your question, but one thing's for sure: CS is no longer just CS, isolated by itself. CS is increasingly interdisciplinary, with cross pollination of students and teachers in other fields like bioinformatics, physics, math, economics, ecology, public health, etc. At least in these fields, it's pretty dinosaur like to just think of CS as its own thing instead of applied CS. And per your assumpti…

I think you hit the nail on the head with teaching yourself to code. Its a way out. Precisely because of that, most people in pure computer science PhD programs can leave and go to industry. This means there isn't a glut of postdocs and adjuncts. This doesn't necessarily mean you have any of a better shot actually getting the Phd or getting a tenure track position, but it means your not dead if you don't.

Yeah but you have to realize 'industry' is still a dirty word. Industry is not the solution that the adjuncts and post-docs are looking for, it's inclusion.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a random sample of 25 papers from: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/catalog/default.aspx?p=1&... 68% of the authors hold academic positions.

Many of those academic positions are just for show, so that another university can't lay claim on them. University of Washington has many 'sponsored' positions, but basically what it amounts to is Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft giving money in exchange for that researcher's time. Latest example would be Babak Parviz, EE prof who spends all time at Google ( http://news.cs.washington.edu/2013/01/26/babak-parviz-on-goo...…

I just checked. Most had verifiable course loads (i.e. personal websites with course information).

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#58

I've been doing a lot of analysis of organizational decline over the past month, and what characterizes R&D (including academia) is extreme convexity: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/gervais-macle... Convexity pertains to the shape of the curve for output (profits, value added, impact) per input (investment, skill, effort, and just plain luck). It pertains to desirable risk behavior (convex => seek ris…

Hmm, I think the problem is slightly different.

The job of a tenured professor in 1980 was pretty sweet. Upper middle class salary, great job security, a soap box from which to influence impressionable minds, freedom to pursue intellectual interests, etc. Naturally, as with any career track that looks pretty sweet, people rush to enter the field. Thus the great numbers of grad students.

There are basically three ways a guild profession can react to an influx of new demand: a) lower the salary and benefits of the master guildsmen to make the profession less desirable and to allow more overall hiring, until supply and demand balance out. b) make the entrance requirements more and more onerous in order to restrict entry c) use a lottery system.

Option a) is out of the question because it hurts the powerful senior professors who run the existing system.

Option b) is the path the universities took. Earning tenture requires more years in grad school, more years as a junior professor, and more risk of never reaching the goal. And the actual research requires mastering extremely esoteric readings and/or mathematical techniques that have virtually no use for actually doing productive research. But requiring mastery of these techniques simply became the default filter. When you have too many grad students, the default is to make the tests harder until you have sufficiently reduced the number who can pass. They then become the new professors, and thus have an inordinate love and respect for the esoteric test material that allowed them to get their current job. The result is the death spiral you describe - burnt out professors who are out of touch with reality.

Option c) a lottery, is the route academia probably should have taken. Set some sort of bar for admittance into grad school - great GRE's, great grades, and great recommendations, and then simply lottery off the spots. Keep the spots few enough so that there is a clear path to a tenured professorship.

But the real underlying problem is that academia is not accountable. Academia is suffering from the problems that plague any self-selected priesthood - over time its practices grow more esoteric and out of touch with reality. There are a few good departments out there, but most departments neither do good teaching nor good research.

Unfortunately, the body that has the lawful right to regulate academy (Congress and State legislatures) are too dumb and too fickle to do the job well. What "reform" happens takes the form of temper tantrums that do little to fix the system.

In the end, I think fixing academia is thus a "regime change complete" problem - ie. not possible in the American political system as it currently exists.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#59

I've been doing a lot of analysis of organizational decline over the past month, and what characterizes R&D (including academia) is extreme convexity: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/gervais-macle... Convexity pertains to the shape of the curve for output (profits, value added, impact) per input (investment, skill, effort, and just plain luck). It pertains to desirable risk behavior (convex => seek ris…

This is silly. It's purely a historical fluke that the role of professor (scientist/teacher) even exists. There is no reason whatsoever why the same person should both create new knowledge and also teach calculus/cs 101/etc. I was good at research, but I sucked at teaching [1]. In contrast, many people are really terrible researchers, but actually pretty good teachers. (As you note, there is a glut of such people, so…

I don't think it is a fluke, it was just a tactic to extract a guaranteed baseline real value from intellectuals where they could jump from research project to research project for years without a return.

Which is perhaps the greatest bane of capitalism - that which has poor returns in the immediate time frame is always passed over for instant results. It hurts our long run dearly to be so inefficient.

Re: Academia Is Eating Its Young

#60

I always wonder when reading these just how much the author is rationalizing their choice to leave. If( and I'm assuming here) they were in grad school for CS and left , most of those problems really don't apply. There isn't the glut of adjuncts and postdocs one sees in e.g Micro biology because industry absorbs most of them. Tech transfer isn't nearly as big a problem (though may still be a problem). And reproducibi…

For all but the superstars with a desire to pursue academia, it is irrational to stay. Especially outside CS, a lot of quality people are heading towards oblivion (middle age with no job, no prospects) by doing a PhD. I know some of them, and it makes me sad to think about it. There just aren't enough jobs and funding dollars to go around. It's not to humanities adjunct-hell level yet, but it stopped being a sound ec…

>"it makes me sad to think about it."

I think this is the best way to sum up my original message. I wrote this blog post out of frustration.

Post reply on HN