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What really happened at PyCon 2013

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Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#91

Post by stcredzero »

_delirium wrote: post #35
ma2rten wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

> On the other hand, Danes can come across as rather crass about some subjects, especially race.

This is a very valuable piece of data!

Despite all that's great about PG's essay: Funny is not an oracle of universal good! Humor is wonderful. It's universal. It's tremendously important, but it does not make you right, and it is not license to do and say whatever you want.

Rationality is wonderful. It's universal and tremendously useful. But we all know that just because a human is applying rationality, that doesn't men she/he is necessarily right. Likewise, what tickles your own funny bone might not tickle someone else's. Humor and rationality are universal. Your own POV and your own application of those are human and flawed.

Funny is not an oracle for all that's good. Most of the time, humor is an orthogonal area of concern. It does not make one righteous, and it's very unlikely that someone failing to be funny gives one an excuse to be self-righteous.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#92

Post by SallySinep »

bad_user wrote: post #51
_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

I'm a Romanian. > suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark Personally I think Americans are spoiled. In Romania under Ceausescu (so before 1989) abortions were illegal. Hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of women (in a country with a population of less than 19 millions) ended up doing illegal abortions under unhealthy,…

Sometimes I think that Romanians (and people who have lived under genuinely despotic regimes) are the only ones who really understand American politics.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#93

Post by SallySinep »

toxik wrote: post #83
mamoswined wrote: post #69

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well." No. Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costume…

I agree with what you're getting at: sex is part of life, and being so broad about it depraves the language.

I think you meant to say "deprived."

But yeah, to the extent that various written and unwritten codes of conduct would try to have us pretend to be perpetually "nice" and asexual to each other in nearly all public contexts, this broadness is is utterly depraved.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#94

Post by AnIrishDuck »

badloginagain wrote: post #82

See, now this sounds like something I want to go to. It sounds like something that would directly benefit me and make me a stronger programmer. I was surprised at how damaging the "incident" was to my perception of pycon overall. The only thing I really heard about the event was all this BS, so I'm glad that this post really informed of the true value and importance of events like these.

I would highly encourage you to go next year if you're on the fence. This was my first PyCon and it was phenomenal.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#95

Post by smsm42 »

flyinRyan wrote: post #57
_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

> Also, suggesting that healthcare should be a purely private responsibility, not guaranteed by the state, would position you as quite far-right, Well, obviously as this is an extreme far right position (I'm american living in Europe and I realize this...).

Of course, any position you do not agree with must be extreme. Reasonable people are called reasonable because they agree with your reference group.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#96

Post by ImprovedSilence »

dutchbrit wrote: post #63
ma2rten wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

When I was working in San Fran (I'm British - live in The Netherlands), the amount of times my colleagues told me, "Sam you're not very PC!" when I made a random funny comment, I always told them, "I know, I'm more of a Mac guy". They weren't offended by my comments I think, but maybe more shocked? I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which ma…

Wow, do people in SF use the term "PC" all the time like that? I've never even heard anyone say that. Also, I have yet to see tremendous displays of people shunning non "PC" comments. So I live/work/grew up in the North-East US. And I say much of the language and jokes are still some what crass and rude. I know a few guys decently high up that drop f-bombs all day long, and nobody blinks, guys in the lab make sexist/elitist jokes left and right, no body cares. (yeah yeah, it's mostly males) But what I've seen, the closer to NY/NJ/Philly you get, the more "un-pc" people get. And sometimes the brutal un-filtered honesty is refreshing to me, to be honest. Or a simple joke about sam having his panties in a knot lightens up the mood a bit.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#97

Post by hrktb »

gbog wrote: post #45
_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

I don't know if you are US citizen or from other American continent citizenship, but I, as a Frenchman, had the same impression, reverted, with fellow Quebequois boys. When we were casually talking between us about girls, they had a kind of transgression excitement that I did not understand. When asking, they told me they kinda weren't allowed to even think this way in their countries, let alone talking about it. For…

For me, it was just normal boytalk sharing personal preferences for small or big female body parts, for them it was as exciting as leaking out of school to smoke a cigarette.

Thinking about it I'm regularly seeing kids aged 13 or 14 smoking cigarettes in front of their schools in Paris. French people have a special ability to free themself from the rules.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#98

Post by chc »

badfortrains wrote: post #90
qw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my view as a Scandinavian your culture seems much more obsessed about sex and punishment than you should. 3-strike system and schools with "zero tolerance" policies are unthinkable here. I also think it's strange to see how you try to protect TV viewers from nipples and the "F-word". It's not surprising that it produces people like AR who thinks any offence is worth fighting.

It seems that the F-word/nipples moratorium is pretty much over. While it's true that broadcast tv still can't show it, cable/satellite tv is pretty ubiquitous and free to bath us in as many nipples and F-words as they please. As for 3-strikes and "zero tolerance" that's a whole other can of worms. Looking at the disparity in US crime statistics vs Scandinavian countries, it's pretty understandable that cultural atti…

I have heard they're technically allowed to, but in practice, cable networks do not seem to feel free to air nudity or strong swearing. Only the "premium" channels like HBO and Showtime do that. No matter how "edgy" MTV wants to be, everyone will keep their clothes on.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#99

Post by obstacle1 »

flyinRyan wrote: post #59
obstacle1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a troll? I don't know your history, but I've heard that you have one, so... If this is a troll, someone let me know, please. Otherwise... >It's designed in a way that makes it very difficult for women to fit in, in any stable and reliable way. Additionally You can't just make a statement, not provide evidence, and then say "additionally...". You haven't proven your first point. What sexist assumptions is whit…

>Is this a troll? Wow. After reading both of your contributions to this thread you stand our far more as the troll to my eyes. >What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on? Are you seriously saying "white-collar work culture" isn't sexist? Pop quiz: how many female CEOs are there in the fortune 100? If you're guess was closer to 8 (the actual number) than 50 would you mind explaining why you w…

>Pop quiz: how many female CEOs are there in the fortune 100? If you're guess was closer to 8 (the actual number) than 50 would you mind explaining why you would guess that?

You know what's sexist? Assuming that a certain demographic makeup for a role in an industry is makes the culture sexist. The fact that 8% of F100 CEOs are male doesn't indicate sexism without further evidence, just like the fact that only 5% of nurses are male[1] doesn't indicate sexism without further evidence. Where is your further evidence?

And BTW, it's "your", not "you're".

> It's pretty well established how and why tech people are exploited

No it isn't. Nobody even agrees on what constitutes exploitation. I'm not satisfied with the intellectual laziness you're advocating for, sorry.

[1] - http://www.minoritynurse.com/minority-nursing-statistics

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#100

Post by dreamfactory »

dutchbrit wrote: post #63
ma2rten wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

When I was working in San Fran (I'm British - live in The Netherlands), the amount of times my colleagues told me, "Sam you're not very PC!" when I made a random funny comment, I always told them, "I know, I'm more of a Mac guy". They weren't offended by my comments I think, but maybe more shocked? I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which ma…

The term PC was originally invented by Reaganite republicans as a piece of propaganda to lampoon the left. The weird thing is that it then ironically caught on, presumably amongst complete dimwits.
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