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How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

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Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#131

Post by jacalata »

doktrin wrote: post #121
VikingCoder wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. I think those are unrelated concepts. I think connecting with the right pool of talent is an art, and a lot of shops are completely artless. > It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked at a company that felt like we couldn't take our pick of applicants. Especi…

> I have applicants for positions that don't exist. My applicant search takes negative time. Why do you feel it's necessary to waste a candidates time by having them apply for make-believe vacancies?

The charitable reading would be that he is talking about unsolicited applications.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#132

Post by kybernetyk »

vinceguidry wrote: post #89
onemorepassword wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's a Buyer's Market On what planet?

> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? If it were easy to find programmers, you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. They wouldn't need to. It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick of corporate gig | freelancing | startup. My last job hunt took one hour. Their search went on for two months. If they fired me I cou…

> unqualified/foreign/unmotivated

Interesting choice of words ...

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#133

Post by run4yourlives »

Falling3 wrote: post #114
run4yourlives wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that at least 60% of people that call themselves programmers, and seemingly have no issue getting by HR, can't code fizzbuzz, let alone whatever it is you're working on. Issue one for me as an interviewer, whenever I've needed to be in such a position, was just to figure out whether or not I was talking with a programmer. After that though I tend to agree with you. Beyond demonstrating basic competence…

I've heard various numbers like this thrown around, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it could possibly be that high. Is that figure coming from personal experience? I also struggle with that idea since I'm very capable of programming fizzbuzz and a lot more, but am still having a problem finding a new position.

Is that figure coming from personal experience?

Actually, if I went purely on personal experience it would be closer to 90%. I tempered it because I can't believe it could be anywhere that bad.

It's sad, but from what I've seen, applicants fall into two major groups, for the most part:

1. People who seem to know how to code (as in, actually use a keyboard) but who don't possess any type of critical thinking skills and can't actually figure out how a piece of code can solve a real world business problem - or even care - unless you tell them exactly how it should work. These people tend to live in big corps and stop coding completely at 4:59 everyday.

2. People with computer science degrees (the more the better) that can think up wonderful and complex solutions to the most basic of problems but can't seem to figure out a syntax error, or understand that a landing page does not require a $40K investment in the latest oracle database software, or that it doesn't matter how wonderful their design is if nobody can figure out how to use it, or that yes, it was more important to have it out last month than it was to make it run 30% faster.

Both of these hires are disasters. Unfortunately, the third group, the ones that can understand what a user is saying, design a simple way to achieve the goal, and where appropriate link it to other related features in a meaningful way, are few and far between. Most of them are working in small shops and never have the need to apply for a position via interview, since they get scooped up on reputation before that.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#134

Post by AaronM »

mindcrime wrote: post #80
edw519 wrote: post #23

How to hire me: 1. Tell me about the 3 biggest things you must accomplish. 2. Tell me why you must accomplish them. 3. Tell me when you must accomplish them by. 4. Tell me how you intend to accomplish them. 5. Tell me what you're already doing to accomplish them. 6. Tell me the role you envision me playing in accomplishing them. 7. Tell me what you expect from me. 8. Put me with some of the key people already working…

That's some good stuff, but I'd add a couple: 1a. Show me the office I'll be working in. Any "open plan" or "2+ people per office" setup decreases your odds of hiring me by about 93%. Not to say I'll never take a job like that, but it really, really hurts your odds. 1b. Show me the rest of the building... are there common areas where people can hang out and collaborate away from their offices, preferably with natural…

Tell me where a place like this exists. I think you may be my doppleganger, especially in regards to #4, #7

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#135

Post by TheMakeA »

Falling3 wrote: post #114
run4yourlives wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that at least 60% of people that call themselves programmers, and seemingly have no issue getting by HR, can't code fizzbuzz, let alone whatever it is you're working on. Issue one for me as an interviewer, whenever I've needed to be in such a position, was just to figure out whether or not I was talking with a programmer. After that though I tend to agree with you. Beyond demonstrating basic competence…

I've heard various numbers like this thrown around, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it could possibly be that high. Is that figure coming from personal experience? I also struggle with that idea since I'm very capable of programming fizzbuzz and a lot more, but am still having a problem finding a new position.

I'm in the same boat here. It makes me wonder if I am doing something so terribly wrong that I am somehow being lumped into the same group as people who can't code.

Want to exchange e-mails and chat about it?

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#136

Post by segmondy »

pekk wrote: post #40
segmondy wrote: post #36

He who is getting hired is at the mercy of the person doing the hiring. That's just how it plays out. If I'm getting hired, I have no say on how a company should conduct their interview process. Their interview process is a window into how they operate, and if it's terrible, I won't want to work for them. i would hate to have a great interview process only to find out that the company is terrible. There is a need for…

I find that people don't respond well to this 'mercenary' attitude. They usually want you to act like you love it, even if it's stupid. They want you to commit long-term, even if you are a temporary contractor. Etc. Every company is like an oversensitive lover who has to be the best ever.

Of course. I'll feign the love for it.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#137

Post by cookiecaper »

mindcrime wrote: post #80
edw519 wrote: post #23

How to hire me: 1. Tell me about the 3 biggest things you must accomplish. 2. Tell me why you must accomplish them. 3. Tell me when you must accomplish them by. 4. Tell me how you intend to accomplish them. 5. Tell me what you're already doing to accomplish them. 6. Tell me the role you envision me playing in accomplishing them. 7. Tell me what you expect from me. 8. Put me with some of the key people already working…

That's some good stuff, but I'd add a couple: 1a. Show me the office I'll be working in. Any "open plan" or "2+ people per office" setup decreases your odds of hiring me by about 93%. Not to say I'll never take a job like that, but it really, really hurts your odds. 1b. Show me the rest of the building... are there common areas where people can hang out and collaborate away from their offices, preferably with natural…

aka "I will only work at venture-backed startups that will die in two years or Google".

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#138

Post by vinceguidry »

kybernetyk wrote: post #132
vinceguidry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? If it were easy to find programmers, you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. They wouldn't need to. It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick of corporate gig | freelancing | startup. My last job hunt took one hour. Their search went on for two months. If they fired me I cou…

> unqualified/foreign/unmotivated Interesting choice of words ...

Unqualified: One of the questions they asked me was the difference between a TCP and a UDP packet. I assume this question tripped up earlier applicants.

Foreign: On their ad, they specified that they couldn't sponsor H1-B Visas, because they had a lot of replies asking for that. They didn't want to deal with a language barrier.

Unmotivated: I learned after I took the job that of those applicants that weren't A or B, the rest of them really wanted to work in games. They decided against hiring them because they were worried about the guy jumping ship as soon as a game job opened up.

I was the first guy they interviewed that didn't have any of these hangups, and jumped immediately on me, despite having no real previous experience with C#, .NET or other C-like languages. They offered me the top-end of my salary request range. I had nothing to negotiate. I can't imagine this having happened in anything other than a seller's market.

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#139

Post by zanny »

potatolicious wrote: post #107
VikingCoder wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. I think those are unrelated concepts. I think connecting with the right pool of talent is an art, and a lot of shops are completely artless. > It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked at a company that felt like we couldn't take our pick of applicants. Especi…

I'll be somewhat blunt - but this isn't meant as disrespect for you. The software industry is highly bimodal. There are two very, very clear camps - you fall into the other camp than most HNers. The market for mid-top end talent is a huge sellers market. There aren't enough people to go around, salaries inflate double-digit percentages every year, and crazily does not seem to be stopping. The market for low-end warm-…

I agree on the two camps ideology, and this is HN after all, so I'll ask - how to you get into the sellers market? I graduated with my CS degree with an ok 3.4 GPA recently, and I cast a wide net on jobs from Django to openCL, but everywhere I apply I either get cold shoulders, a 30 minute phone interview that never gets a response even with follow up, or rejection on a lack of project experience. I've been working FOSS for a few months now, and I hope that helps, but when you live in the middle of PA and not a big tech hot spot, have no networking contacts, and no desire to try to play founder-with-some-arbitrary-webapp-maybe-1mil-people-will-use-but-will-be-forgotten-in-a-year how do you get ahead?

Re: How To Hire Me (or any other programmer)

#140

Post by zanny »

vinceguidry wrote: post #89
onemorepassword wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's a Buyer's Market On what planet?

> You think it's hard to find programmers, at any given level of skill? If it were easy to find programmers, you wouldn't have all these shops using spam-tactic recruiters to drive volume. They wouldn't need to. It's most definitely a seller's market, if programmers can take their pick of corporate gig | freelancing | startup. My last job hunt took one hour. Their search went on for two months. If they fired me I cou…

Maybe it is just perspective. I'm not good either, but I am a deep introvert that always botches interviews, and I've been job hunting for ~6 months, across the Internet. No network, I live in the middle of PA so no person-to-person tech sector without spending a few hundred dollars traveling, and I've been doing FOSS for a while now just biding my time so I have a portfolio to sell to get a 9-5 or go freelance (though I'd probably prefer the latter).

From my experiences, it is very circumstantial if you hit the ground running in a week like you said, or just get stuck in a mile of resumes, 3 week delays between responses with anyone from a 5 man startup to Amazon, and I think it is all about the network / school / area you are in. Besides being good, which I'm not either - that is kind of the golden ticket to glory.

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